She refers to herself as the Lord's messenger. So, she claims to be sent by God with a message. And she says at one point the the term prophet cannot apply to her work because her work encompasses much more than that. Since 'prophet' is not adequate, and it is the second gift, the only broader term left is 'apostle.'

That is her own testimony, but what about the evidence. How does her life compare with the known apostles. Notice that Westley correctly includes Moses in the catigory of Apostles. The office did not begin with the 12. Clearly, when Paul was added, it showed that the gift was not exclusive to them. And since the gifts of the spirit predate Penticost, we're justified in looking at some of the OT prophets as also being endowed with the apostolic gift. I believe Isaiah, Jeremiah and Daniel were probably also Apostles.

If the criteria for being an apostle is to have seen Jesus Christ and to be sent by him, many fit that.

Tom

Could you elaborate on that?

Jesus Christ has manifest Himself to many people, in very striking ways. For example, Waggoner, commenting on his own experience, says he doesn't think it possible that Paul's experience could have been any more vivid (not sure what the best word to use here) than his. (Waggoner saw Christ crucified "as bright as the noon-time sun" is how I think he put it). Many have had very striking experiences where Jesus Christ appeared to them.

All who are Christ's are sent, are they not? We all have the mission of proclaiming the Gospel.

I think the idea of a spiritural hierarchy may be a vestigial idea from Romanism. The Scriptural idea seems to me to be that we are all members of the body of Christ, each one with gifts and an important function to play.

The natural mind finds distasteful the ideas of the sovereignty of God as a great King, Christ as His regent, commander and chief of the hosts of heaven, rightful sovereign of earth and heaven and a human leadership on earth based on spiritual values and gifts. But regarding the earthy hierarchy of the church, the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem are the 12 apostles, the building confirming the leadership position of apostleship. The paradox of the Biblical hierarchy is that we have only one head, Christ, and all of us are brothers. That is the essential difference between a political hierarchy and a spiritual one. Apostleship does not in any way dilute or undermine the brotherhood of the saints.

But the scripture also doesn’t dilute the meaning of the gift by assigning it to everyone who has seen Christ and who has been sent with a message. Apostleship is much more than this. It is the type of commission that the disciples, Moses and some of the important prophets of the OT received directly from Christ. In contrast, Waggoner did not receive a direct commission in the same way these others did. He was not, for example, told to refer to himself as the 'Lord's messenger'. So, in addition to being sent and being commissioned by Christ, apostleship also includes two other characteristics - a leadership role and a role as an expositor of truth, the latter being inspired by the prophetic gift.

The gift of apostleship can function in periods of apostacy. Jeremiah was commissioned as a youth but his sacred credentials were scorned and tradition has it that he died a maryter's death, sawn in two. So the leadership aspect has to be understood in the context of the spiritual health of the church. Ellen White was effectively undermined in influence by our elected leaders I think at more than one point in her life.

Mark,

Regarding Waggoner, the Spirit of Prophecy stated that he (and Jones) had been given "the most precious truths ever committed to mortals" which seems to me like it should count for something.

Regarding the test of apostleship, I wish to make clear that I did not suggest that seeing Jesus Christ and being sent by him was a sign of such. Someone else wrote that. I merely commented that if that were all that were necessary, there are many who would fit that.

Regarding the things you wrote regarding Apostleship, on what is that based? Can you quote Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy or something to support what you're writing? Doesn't "apostle" simply mean someone who is sent? I'm not aware of any developed theology of apostleship in Scripture.

It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the whole ball of wax. He is the head and we are the body. We each have different gifts and a role to play.

This isn't a subject I've studied out, so I'm just asking for some sort of evidence for a position that's suggested.

I never thought of Christ as an apostle, but as the Apostle as another name for His function as part of the Godhead, in which His role was to be our Redeemer.

As Christ the Son was sent by the Father to reveal His true character, so Christ the Son also sends His apostles to testify of Him.

In the same sense of being God's messenger, EGW could also be considered an apostle, although I also never previously thought of her that way.

Given that "apostle" means one who is sent, this certainly applies for Christ in terms of His being the representative of God.

Tom

Does that mean that you regard the books written by Waggoner as equal with those written by Ellen (and equal to the bible in authority)?

/Thomas