Thomas, I think they are in error if they think the latter rain is falling and there is no connection with the beginning of the latter rain. How could God just pretend like the beginning never happened? Consider the following statement from the Spirit of Prohecy:

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An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded
in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234)

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Note this says the message will lighten the whole earth with glory. This is a reference to Rev. 18:1, which is "that other angel" which EGW often relates to "the loud cry of the third angel's message" and "the latter rain."

Many people think of the latter rain in terms of impressive spiritual gifts, but this is not how it was manifest when it was falling (in the 1888 era). The latter rain was falling in the form of a message, in the form of light and truth. A. T. Jones talks about this in the 1893 GCB. He points out that the latter rain passage in Joel 2 can be understood as "a teacher according to righteousness" from the Hebrew (sorry, I don't remember the details better. You can find it from the above mentioned 1893 GCB sermons). So both from Joel 2 as well as from statements of the Spirit of Prophecy the latter rain was seen as a message.

Most people nowadays are unaware of the Spirit of Prophecy statements that the latter rain was falling in the form of a message, and think that the latter rain has to do with other things completely unrelated to truth or a message. But it is the message which distinguishes this church from others.

In Rev. 14 it talks about the 144,000 as a group with no guile, meaning that they will tell the truth. It is the truth which will prepare the world for the coming of Christ.

In the book "The Great Controversy" EGW speaks of how the enemy will seek to confuse the issue with false movements which are characterized by impressive outward demonstrations.

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It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. (GC 569)

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When the latter rain really falls, it will do so in the form of a message which makes clear these issues. A message of clarity regarding the Gospel, regarding God's character, will lighten the earth with glory.

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It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth....

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)

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You're saying Thomas that there are some individuals and churches you're aware of where there are clear manifestations of the gifts? If you think some of those manifestations would help the forum, feel free to open a thread on that.

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Mark

Yep, I know of some. I have meet both individuals and persons leading out in the church, but I havent been there myself due to distance. Its abroad. Im not sure how opening a thread on it would help the forum.

Tom

I havent spoken enough with the church people to know what they think about the latter rain, only enough to know that they are experiencing things that you otherwise mostly read about in acts, or in Ellens biography if you are so inclined.

Now that you mention it, the gifts of the Spirit often follow the preaching of the gospel, rather than the other way around.
But your argument, if I correctly understood it, is based on an assumption that unless all of the SDA church is ready to recieve Gods blessing, noone will get it.

Ive read a book wich gets into this question. It is an biography over events which have happened from around 1970 to around 1995 in china. Its name is The Heavenly Man. Its well worth reading.

/Thomas

No, no, no, Thomas. Not all. That would never happen. What's needed mostly is for the leadership to respond. When we've seen revival in the past in Scripture, it's been when leadership has taken the lead. It's difficult for the laity to get things going. This is why Christ spent so much time and effort trying to win the Pharisees (a point often missed, but true).

When the latter rain began to fall in the 1888 era, it was the leadership that stifled it, which you may be aware of if you have studied the 1888 message at all. The statement which I've quoted several times bears this out:

An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234)

The "our own brethren" referred to here is the leadership which resisted the message. The common SDA person never heard the message. Satan succeeded in shutting away from the our people the special power of the Holy Spirit God longed to give (this is talking about the latter rain here -- note it's connected to the Gospel message!).

The Spirit of Prophecy spoke of how God could get things done even without the leadership cooperating, so it's possible things could transpire by some other means, although the most likely scenario seems to me would be for the leadership to wake up to what the Spirit of Prophecy is saying here. But regardless of how it happens, it's a sure thing that the message that will "lighten the earth with glory" will be in the thick of things. If we see special manifestations like recorded in Acts, without the Gospel being presented, that should make alarms go off to us.

Conserning revival in the bible, think of the egyptian slaves. Did God send one of their elders or did He send a sheepherd since 40 years? Think of the judges time, did God send in the leader of the tribes or did he choose terrified peasants and women? Think of the times of king Saul, did God send revival trough Saul or did He anoint the younges brother in a large family whos work thus far had been (again) tending to sheep? And of course in Jesus time, when He had a following of both fishermen and pharisee (and probably priest), did He choose the pharisee or the fishermen to lead among the following He had? Jesus could have choosen Nicodemus or maybe Joseph of Arimathea from the Sandhedrin, yet He choose John and Peter.

I think you may have goten things backwards. In the bible, God generally didnt choose leaders, those God choose became leaders precisely becourse God had choosen them.

Besides, I havent heard anything about the gospel not being presented amongst these people.

/Thomas

Throughout history God's denominated people have resisted Him. There have been very brief moments of revival, but God has never been able to do what He wanted to do. When God sent servants, they killed them. When He sent His Son, they killed Him to.

Referring to the 1888 era, Ellen White says that had Christ been personally present, we would have treated Him as the Jews (we being the GC delegates meeting in 1888), which is to say, we would have killed Him too.

However, at some point in history there must be a change. Who am I to limit God? I'm not saying that if the leadership were to refuse to cooperate that this would prevent God from accomplishing His work, but I have a firm conviction that the Seventh-day Adventist church will not apostatize, and that it will accomplish it's God given role of preparing the world for the coming of Christ. I do not see how this could be done without leadership being involved.

For sure, there will be a shake-up, as we are told that bright lights will go out. But I think there will be "bright lights" that will stay too. Some of our leadership will be converted, and some no doubt already are, ready to respond to the Lord's bidding.

The reformation I was thinking of was Josiah's. Whenever Israel had even the limited success it had, it seems to me it was by way of leadership. It was because of leadership that Israel rejected Christ. Leadership has great influence.

In the examples you gave, you showed that God chooses messengers from all walks of life. But I was speaking of reformation. Did Israel every have a successful reformation where leadership was not involved? I guess one could ask if Israel has a successful reformation at all.

At some point in time God will have a people who will follow the Lamb wherever He goes. The question comes as to why Christ hasn't come yet. There are some who think that it's just because the time hasn't come yet, but this flies in the face of both inspiration and what we know of God's character.

We are told that God sent a message for the explicity purpose of preparing the world for the coming of Christ, but our leadership prevented the message from getting out to the people. We are told this message will lighten the earth with glory. The most logical guess, it seems to me, is that one day the leadership will wake up, and get the message out. But again, God is God. He has many ways in which to work.

If Israel ever had a successful reformation, surely it was during the reign of David, whom we know only became a leader after God chose him.
If we go to examples in the church, what about the protestant reformation? Was it brought forth by the pope or one of the cardinals or was it brought forth by village priests and ordinary monks? Even the adventist reformation wasnt lead by any established christian leaders but by the preaching of a farmer. This is not to say that God cannot bring reformation trough established leadership, only that it is far from established procedure for that order of events to occur.

I wonder, are you not limiting God when suggesting that these churches/individuals whom I mentioned earlier are not genuinely Gods? And this even with the very limited information I knew and shared. And this becourse the GC people hasnt officially embraced Jones and Waggoner. I wonder, do you believe that the SDA church today or at some time before we will see Jesus come down on the clouds is/will be the same as the bride of Jesus, all counted and none missing?

/Thomas

You've got my attention Thomas. I think it would help the forum to hear about people who seem to have the gifts. Since you only know things second hand and only in a limited way, if the spirit moves you, invite some here who have broader, first hand knowledge. The christian living forum would be a good venue, and they're welcome to open a thread.

Thomas, I don't think God will take action in the future which ignores action He's taken in the past. If it was important in the past to give us a message, the purpose of which is to lighten the earth with glory to prepare for the coming of Christ, the "most precious truths ever given to mortals," I think any outpouring of the Holy Spirit now will build upon that, not ignore it.

I know nothing of the individuals or churches of which you spoke. I made no judgmental statements regarding them, nor will I do so. I don't know them. I suggested a principle, which is *IF* a movement going on now is ignoring what God was doing previously, I would be skeptical. Maybe the individuals or churches you are speaking of are building on top of the message. I don't know. I have no way of knowing. I'm just suggesting a principle which I think is valid, that truth is progressive, and God will build upon truth He has already revealed, not ignore it.

I do not believe this is limiting God in any way, but is simply in harmony with the way He has revealed Himself in the past.

What do you think? Is this a reasonable thing to suggest?

Regarding SDA's, I said in the previous post that many bright lights would be shaken out, so from that statement it should be very clear I wasn't saying "some time before we will see Jesus come down on the clouds is/will be the same as the bride of Jesus, all counted and none missing?"

I don't know where you would have gotten this idea from. I believe God will use the SDA church to communicate the truth which will prepare for the coming of Christ to the world, but those who receive that message will be from all faiths, of every tongue, and tribe, and people, and nation, as the Scripture says. No doubt the majority will not be SDA's. God has faithful people in all denominations, faiths, and religions.

Where I got that idea? Its called remnant theology and is something that shows its head in different SDA situations. You could find it in the archives at maritime... Note that I dont agree with the idea just becoure I am asking about it.