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Re: Apostleship #74567
06/08/06 12:58 PM
06/08/06 12:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding a rule of faith, the Bible is it, which is what the Spirit of Propecy says, as well as being Protestant tradition. Regarding Sister White's role, I have complete confidence that she was a mengenger of the Lord, and that God used her in the way she indicated.

In terms of truth, I look at things in terms of God's wanting to communicate it to us. I try to understand the truths that God is communicating to us, regardless of the source. Truth is truth, regardless of the source. All truth comes from God.

The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the most precious truths ever committed to mortals were given to us through Jones and Waggoner. I don't think it was her intent to place them above the Bible in terms of authority, but to point out the importance of the truths God communicated to us, and His interest in our learning them. What do you think?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Apostleship #74568
06/08/06 01:47 PM
06/08/06 01:47 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
I think you present a healthy approach on seeking truth here. God is in the buisness of making the truth about Himself available to people on earth, has done so primarily trough Jesus and the 66 books of the bible, has and is doing so secoundarily trough the all those who took/take on the yoke of Jesus and follw Him wherever He goes. And all secoundary sources are to be compared for accuracy with the primary sources. Are we saying the same thing?

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Apostleship #74569
06/08/06 07:57 PM
06/08/06 07:57 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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Posts: 4,583
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I think we agree closely with your statement Thomas.

Tom, regarding the scripture I use to support my narrower application of the gift of apostleship, I don't have more to add than what I've cited for now. I'm suggesting that the references I've given are the support for what I've posted.

As with apostleship, we could also make a broad application of the prophetic gift because we know that prophecy has more to do with doctrine and teaching than it does predicting the future but it would be a mistake to attribute that gift to anyone who teaches, even if their docrtine is sound. In addition, it's also true that all of us have a measure of the prophetic gift because it is the prophetic gift in us that enables us to interpret the inspired teachings of the prophets and apostles. But we don't normally claim to have that gift in the scriptural sense.

Re: Apostleship #74570
06/08/06 09:26 PM
06/08/06 09:26 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Yes, Thomas, I think we're saying the same thing.

Regarding prophecy, I think it's debatable that the term, as Paul used it, was meant to be as narrow as we commonly used it. I think the word in the Greek can be understand simply as meaning to communicate truth received by God.

Ellen White referred to Jones and Waggoners as "prophets," although her work was different in character than theirs (God sent them to teach righteousness by faith - she had a broader ministry than that).

Actually as I re-read your post, Mark, it seems you're saying the same thing I would say. In the sense that Ellen White was a prophet, the word "prophet" is very narrow in scope. In the sense of interpreting inspired teachings, as you put it, it is broader in scope, and a gift which Paul suggested we should all seek.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Apostleship #74571
06/09/06 11:07 AM
06/09/06 11:07 AM
C
Charity  Offline
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Posts: 4,583
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Yes, Paul urges us all to especially desire the gift of prophecy, but there are degrees of the gift. While everyone is urged to seek the Holy Spirit for a portion of that gift, we are also told that our prophesying should be in porportion to our faith.

12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith; Romans

So again, we are not all prophets but we all should have a measure of the gift. In the days of Saul, a common saying in Israel was, "Is Saul among the prophets" and one of the reasons for the question was that on one occasion when Saul came to capture David at Ramah, knowing that God had taken the kingdom from him and given it to David, that God intervened set a prophetic spirit on Saul so that he threw off his clothes and prophesied naked. So the answer to the question was clearly 'no', but it underscored the point that God is well able to place a prophetic spirit on anyone He chooses, even on a man who has repeatedly grieved His Spirit, as in the cases of Saul, Balaam and Caiphas. The account is in I Sam 19.

I tried to find the statement you referred to in the SOP where she refers to Jones and Waggoner as prophets but couldn't locate it. Can you find that for us? While looking, I did find the statement below where Ellen White says Jones is under a spell of unbelief in regard to her prophet gift and urges him to return to his earlier faith. This story is a poignant reminder of the human fraility of even those blessed with great truth and our need to test the teachings of everyone against the Word. In the cases of Jones and Waggoner its helpful to know when they wrote or said something. Notice that Ellen White ends this passage with a prediction of the increasing role of the gifts in the church:
Quote:


It has been presented to me that I must speak to you [A. T. Jones], for you need help in order to break the spell that has been upon you. If you would humble your heart before the Lord, and accept the light that He has given you, you would have help from God. {9MR 278.1}


I have been instructed to use those discourses of yours printed in the General Conference Bulletins of 1893 and 1897, which contain strong arguments regarding the validity of the Testimonies, and which substantiate the gift of prophecy among us. I was shown that many would be helped by these articles, and especially those newly come to the faith who have not been made acquainted with our history as a people. It will be a blessing to you to read again these arguments, which were of the Holy Spirit's framing. {9MR 278.2}

Be assured, Elder Jones, that if you see your mistake in pursuing the course you have for some time been following, and take your position on the side of truth in regard to this question, the spell that is upon you will be broken. We call upon you to take your stand on the Lord's side, and act your part as a loyal subject of the kingdom. Acknowledge the gift that has been placed in the church for the guidance of God's people in the closing days of earth's history. From the beginning the church of God has had the gift of prophecy in her midst as a living voice to counsel, admonish, and instruct. We have now come to the last days of the work of the third angel's message, when Satan will work with increasing power because he knows that his time is short. At the same time there will come to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, diversities of operations in the outpouring of the Spirit. This is the time of the latter rain.



Re: Apostleship #74572
06/09/06 06:21 PM
06/09/06 06:21 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
1.I couldn't find the statement. I remember it in its generality, but unfortunately "prophets" is such a common word that it's not too helpful to try to find it.

She referred to Jones and Waggoner as prophets in an indirect way, by quoting a Scripture which spoke of "prophets." She was commenting on their being servants of the Lord, and quoted this Scripture, which had the word "prophets" in it. Sorry I can't remember more than that.

If you're really interested in it, I know someone who would very likely know it, and could get it to you that way, although I'm a bit reticent to bug him about this, unless it's something you consider to be very important.


2.I understand that the prophetic spirit in the sense of Saul and the others was the Lord's revealing truth to them, which I guess is the same as in any case. It's true that the Lord does not usually reveal truth to those who are rejecting Him in such a striking fashion, since they have no use of it, but He at times has done this as a means of reaching others. God works in interesting ways, doesn't He? I don't understand that God took possession of them like demonic angels do, since God does not force the will of judgment of any, to use the Spirit of Prophecy's phraseology.


3.I think it's somewhat helpful to know when Jones and Waggoner said things, especially for those not familiar with their work, or unfamiliar with the truths they presented. But really one should be able to identify truth without this crutch. For example, Luther wrote many wonderful things, but also something which weren't right. How do we know which is which? We don't have the Spirit of Prophecy to tell us what dates we should be looking at. We identify truth by validating it against things we already know to be true, and by the help of the Holy Spirit:

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 John 2:26, 27)

Jones preached a sermon in which he pointed out that even if the devil should say the truth, we should be able to recognize it by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. If only one out of ten thousand words is truth, He will bear witness to that. Something like that. This was the first sermon of either the 1893 or 1895 GCB.

We should be able to know and identify truth without the Spirit of Prophecy telling us what it is or isn't. Her endorsements seem to make little difference. At least that's been my experience. People believe what they want to believe.


4.I'm quibbling a bit perhaps about some of the details, or making some comments about certain points where I could see someone taking something wrong (perhaps in a different way than you intended), but I wanted to commend you on your post. I thought it was quite good.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Apostleship #74573
06/09/06 09:21 PM
06/09/06 09:21 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Quote:

Acknowledge the gift that has been placed in the church for the guidance of God's people in the closing days of earth's history. From the beginning the church of God has had the gift of prophecy in her midst as a living voice to counsel, admonish, and instruct. We have now come to the last days of the work of the third angel's message, when Satan will work with increasing power because he knows that his time is short. At the same time there will come to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, diversities of operations in the outpouring of the Spirit. This is the time of the latter rain.




I hear (and have seen some) that this is true in some SDA churches. But not in the average church. Why is this? Some maybe explained by fear of anything pentecostal, some maybe explained by lukewarmness and lack of commitment to God, and maybe some is explained by people living this life but not telling anyone in church for one or another reason. And maybe the truth about this is yet something different from what I could think of.

Quote:

3.I think it's somewhat helpful to know when Jones and Waggoner said things, especially for those not familiar with their work, or unfamiliar with the truths they presented. But really one should be able to identify truth without this crutch. For example, Luther wrote many wonderful things, but also something which weren't right. How do we know which is which? We don't have the Spirit of Prophecy to tell us what dates we should be looking at. We identify truth by validating it against things we already know to be true, and by the help of the Holy Spirit:



Spirit of Prophecy adventist definition of Spirit of Prophecy biblical definition?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Apostleship #74574
06/09/06 09:33 PM
06/09/06 09:33 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the message of righteousness by faith which Jones and Waggoner brought us was the beginning of the loud cry (which she also associated with the latter rain):

Quote:

The time of test is just upon us, for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin-pardoning Redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth. (1888 Materials p. 1073)




The light which is to fill the earth with glory has not been received. Until it is, the latter rain is on hold.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Apostleship #74575
06/09/06 10:08 PM
06/09/06 10:08 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
So what about those people who are daily experiencing things that are regularily identified with the latter rain?

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Apostleship #74576
06/10/06 12:27 PM
06/10/06 12:27 PM
C
Charity  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
You're saying Thomas that there are some individuals and churches you're aware of where there are clear manifestations of the gifts? If you think some of those manifestations would help the forum, feel free to open a thread on that.

I agree with your definition of the spirit of prophecy. Ellen White would agree as well and in fact this what she is saying in the above quote - the spirit of prophecy has always been manifested in the church.

And I agree that many in the church have and will brace themselves against spiritual manifestations. Satan will use our healthy perspective on tongues and play on our prejudices and fears so that many also reject the genuine article. Then there will be those, probably more common, who will accept a counterfeit spirit. As the celebration style of worship opens the door for a feelings-based religion hyper-feeling is viewed as the moving of the Spirit.

My reason for asking us to consider the Biblical role of the gifts in the church, especially prophecy and apostleship, is because these genuine gifts will be manifested more clearly in the future so it is important to understand what they are. As she says:

Quote:

[T]here will come to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, diversities of operations in the outpouring of the Spirit. This is the time of the latter rain.




"Diversities of operations" indicates that the gifts will provide the mandate or job descriptions. Not everyone will be a prophet, not everyone will be an apostle, not everyone an evangelist. That is for the Holy Spirit to decide. It was the Holy Spirit who directed the apostles in filling the vacant place of Judas. It may not be long before we see that few Adventists will be able to tell the real from the counterfeit and much of the responsibility for this must rest with leaders who have allowed and in many cases nurtured the current state of affairs in the church.

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