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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75020
07/07/06 11:22 AM
07/07/06 11:22 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Brazil
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Just an aside here. I understand that, in Christ's case, His spirit was His divinity.
Anyway, this is what Ellen White says that happened:
"When He closed His eyes in death upon the Cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to heaven, as many believe, or how could His words be true—'I am not yet ascended to my Father'? The Spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, and did not wing its way to heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven." RH, April 5, 1906. Cited by 5 BC, 1126.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75021
07/07/06 01:09 PM
07/07/06 01:09 PM
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Quote:
I'm saying to you Kubuli, don't take my word for it; look at scripture to see whether the image of a soldier on a *spiritual* battlefield is used to descibe the Christian.
And I am saying to you Mark, that you are confusing a struggle between civilian captives and their captors with the larger context within which that struggle occurs, i.e. the conflict between the principals. The larger conflict is a spiritiual conflict between two spirits and we are caught up in it. Paul was in no position to transform humans into spirits. He was simply letting his readers understand the context of their struggle. You have added to his message a meaning that is foreign.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75022
07/07/06 03:13 PM
07/07/06 03:13 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Quote:
"When He closed His eyes in death upon the Cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to heaven, as many believe, or how could His words be true—'I am not yet ascended to my Father'? The Spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, and did not wing its way to heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven." RH, April 5, 1906. Cited by 5 BC, 1126.
I couldn't find the RH reference. In the 5BC reference, I see it referring to 3SP 203, 204. In the references I looked at, it has "The spirit of Jesus slept ...." not "The Spirit of Jesus slept."
I think the spirit referred to must be here must be the spirit of Jesus the man, not anything related to His divinity, because it says "the spirit of Jesus slept". This "slept" referred to here is the sleep of death. Divinity cannot die, so this can't be referring to Jesus' divinity.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75023
07/07/06 03:19 PM
07/07/06 03:19 PM
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Christ said of himself that he had the power to lay down his own life and power to take it up. Adventism has taught that the spirit of man is merely the 'breath of life' from God. That is an element of what the scripture means by the spirit of man, but only a part of it. The more important aspect from our point of view is that our spirits are us, our essence, our characters. Why would Christ, in His dying moment wrap his arms of faith about the Father and merely say to Him, Here is the breath of life that you gave me. Please take it back. If the spirit Christ was committing to the Father was only the life we all borrow from God with no personal identy, then there is nothing unique about our spirits and we (and Christ) would have no burden to see that the Father receives our spirits in safe keeping. But if in fact our spirits are our essence, our personal identity which are animated by the Spirit of God, then when we approach our final hour we would be quite interested in yielding our spirits to God as Christ did.
Adventism doesn't have any problems with the spirit being associated with the essence of the man, just with the idea that the spirit can exist consciously in a disembodied state. For Christ to say, "into Thy hands, I commit My spirit" is equivalent to Him saying, "into Thy hands, I commit Myself."
I think your idea that the "spirit" referred to by Christ is "our essence, our personal identity" is accurate.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75024
07/07/06 03:26 PM
07/07/06 03:26 PM
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OP
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Quote:
All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven."
By “life and intelligence” does she mean that the spirit or character of Christ remained in the tomb? Or does she mean that his life, his conscious, intelligent awareness, his existence as a conscious being, as a spirit, was suspended in death? To answer that we look at the surrounding sentences. She is making the case that Christ was indeed truly dead and that his existence did not take on another form and go to the Father while his body rested in the tomb. The point she is making was that he was asleep in death, not living in the spirit with His Father. But this does not mean we can divide his spirit between human and divine and say one ascended up and other went to the grave or into oblivion? Christ is like us in nature, a unity. This unbroken unity is our claim to His divine nature. It’s a sublime thought – Behold what manner of love hath the Father bestowed on us that we might be called the sons and daughters of God, partakers with Christ of the divine nature.
So in saying that 'His spirit slept' she is saying quite clearly that he did have a spirit. And this agrees with Christ's own statement that he commended his spirit for safe-keeping to God.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75025
07/07/06 03:48 PM
07/07/06 03:48 PM
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Tom, you wrote: Quote:
Adventism doesn't have any problems with the spirit being associated with the essence of the man, just with the idea that the spirit can exist consciously in a disembodied state. For Christ to say, "into Thy hands, I commit My spirit" is equivalent to Him saying, "into Thy hands, I commit Myself."
I think your idea that the "spirit" referred to by Christ is "our essence, our personal identity" is accurate.
Ok, I'm very glad we can agree on that point. I'm willing to say that I'm not taking a firm position on what was happening with Paul and Ellen White in vision. I've already posted which way I lean on that issue, but I'm open to other possiblities. The main issue is to expand our view of the nature of man as a spiritual entitity. We need to see how Christ, in his humanity combined the Divine and Human spirit in one, and that He is eternally one with us. We have a human/divine God. This thought helps us to worship God in spirit and in truth.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75026
07/07/06 05:28 PM
07/07/06 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Tom, you wrote:Quote:
We need to see how Christ, in his humanity combined the Divine and Human spirit in one, and that He is eternally one with us. We have a human/divine God. This thought helps us to worship God in spirit and in truth.
Or it helps us believe a manufactured doctrine.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75027
07/07/06 06:49 PM
07/07/06 06:49 PM
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Active Member 2012
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You should to a better job of quoting. You're making it look like I said something Mark said.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75028
07/07/06 06:52 PM
07/07/06 06:52 PM
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Mark, this is a bit of a side issue, but I don't understand your position on Ellen White's vision or on Paul's statement. I've presented arguments on both showing why what you're suggesting looks untenable. You apparently don't find the arguments convincing, but I have no idea why not. The logic in both arguments looks to me to be sound.
We should understand that a disembodied human spirit cannot be. At the very least, there are issues of spiritualism involved.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the spirit of a man?
#75029
07/07/06 07:55 PM
07/07/06 07:55 PM
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What is your view on the nature of man Kubuli? You don't think he has a spirit? Did you look at my comments on the thread on the election. One of your concerns here is about spiritual warfare and that I might be overstating what our role is. On the other thread, you'll see I have a modest view of the role we humans have in fighting the Lord's battles.
I don't think I can add much more on the topic of Ellen White in vision Tom. I've stated that when prophets are in vision, scripture speaks of them as being 'in the spirit'. To me I think it means more than an altered state of awareness. But I agree that all the evidence indicates that there are no disembodied spirits because we all live and move and have our being in God. A spirit outside of the sustaining life of God ceases to exit. And as I've said, it looks to me like all intellegent life has some form of body.
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