There is another bit of logic from the same post that I would like to have explained to me too.

How is it that a just, perfect, and Holy Law provokes me to not only commit sin, but be sinful? How does God's character, being what it is--the antithesis of sin--provoke me to selfishness and covetousness, the very opposite of what it stands for? How does Holiness encourage, abet, and cause, sin? If this were true God would be responsible for causing people to sin just because of He is who He is, Holiness personified. This makes God, by His being Holy, the cause of sin itself. Again, this logic is very strange indeed.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

While some of the more advanced theology speak has gone over my head, I do notice that there's a lot of confusion dealing with sin and "the Law".

Well, I've had it described best to me, that "sin" was not so much a matter of "breaking God's law" as it is "seperation from God" by whatever means.

How well we are following his law is *secondary* to our relationship with Him. Are we a prisoner because we can't follow God's law? Is it possible to follow God's law?

You prbably already know that we CAN'T follow God's law 100% on our own. An 50% isn't "good enough" either. It simply can't be done - are we a prisoner to that?
My thinking is, no, we're not. Since we can't follow the law on our own, we HAVE to turn to the one way it IS possible - to turn our lives over to Jesus. Through HIM it can be possible to follow his law easier on Earth. Our failings are also washed away when we are repentant at His feet. In the "Big Ledger" when we are judged, we will show to have "followed the law" because Jesus blotted out the places where we have failed.

I'm rambling. In short - the #1 priority should be a relationship with Jesus. The closer we are to Him, the easier it is to follow His law, and the less discouraged we'll be if/when we fail.

I was going to answer the original question but I think Gerry Buck answered it just about as good as it could be answered already.

It seems simple enough.

Claudia

Hi Markel,

quote:

---

How well we are following his law is *secondary* to our relationship with Him. Are we a prisoner because we can't follow God's law? Is it possible to follow God's law?

---

God's law is the revelation of what *sin* and *separation* from Him is. The first two commandments deal with the principle that for God to have His rightful place in our lives we must place Him first in all things. All things include the way we respond to His commands in all things. Since you seem to consider following His law secondary to our relationship with Him do you mind explaining just how that logic explains the results of the fall of Adam and Eve? They had a perfect relationship until they broke away from His stated commands and did what they considered to be a better way of doing things. (They worshipped their own opinion thus making it an idol in place of God and breaking the first two commandments.) They walked and talked with Him daily until they sinned. After sin this was no longer possible. I see the lesson in this as: sinning breaks the relationship between God and His creatures. Just how was their obedience secondary to their relatinship with Him? Failing to obey broke that relationship.

Please show some scriptural evidence that sinning does not come between man and God.

As to your questions--Yes, we are prisoners on this planet because of Adam and Eve not following God's laws. Jesus made it clear that to serve sin separates us from God.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Notice that Jesus says you can't serve God and covetousness at the same time. You can either be covetous, or you can serve God. He did not lay out any middle ground. His lesson is plain, you can serve God, or you can break His commandments for the story highlights one of the Ten. Serving God and breaking His law are at odds with each other. Jesus makes this even clearer still in another place.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me,

Notice that Jesus tied sin and the Ten Commandments together here again. He also states that if we are sinning we are the servants of sin (in bondage to it). He also states that if He is the one that sets us free we are indeed free. In the context of this story this can only mean from from the bondage of sin (committing sin).

Yes, we can keep God's law--2Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The original Greek word translated as the phrase "beholding as in a glass" actually means reflecting as in a mirror. Since we has humans cannot physically reflect God just how is that we can reflect God? By reflecting His character showing all the world just who God is. Just as Jesus came to show the world who the Father is and was able to say, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father", so Paul is telling us that we also are to reflect the image of God. People are to see in us the character of God.

Holy dissection, Batman!
I never claimed to be a theologian, let alone a pastor. You're gonna' chase me away!

I wasn't trying to say we could happily sin away, I was only trying to get at one main point that you yourself even mentioned...
[q]Jesus made it clear that to serve sin separates us from God.[/q]
That's it! Sin = seperation from God.
In order to commit "sin" we must choose to put God aside and commit the act, whatever that act may be. "Sin" could be described as the action of shoving God aside so you can do your 'own' thing.

Technically speaking, breaking the law itself is not the sin- walking away from God (even for a moment) to do your own thing, is.

Now this isn't doctrine or written in scripture... this is just some of my thoughts that have percolated while I study the Word.

Gary wrote:

I'm curious.
How does a Holy Law, formulated by God Himself, make us prisoners of sin? Nowhere in the Bible do I see this taught.

Jesus came to save His people from their sins. So according to this philosophy Jesus came to save us from His own law. I find this to be rather strange indeed.

= = = = = = = =

Romans 6:14

SIN shall not be your master because you are not under the law but under grace.

So, if you are under the law SIN will be your master.

Roman 3:19 says that they who are under the law are those who must keep whatever is written in the book of the law.

You are under the law because the 10 commandments is a law that you believe is still exist, valid and binding for you to keep and obey as a standard for Christian living, and that the law has the authority to judge you.

As the principe of the law is based on God's agape love but you yourself is controlled by the flesh and have a selfish atitude, you can never fulfil the righteous demand of the law, so all law keepers come under God's judgement and no one could be justified by their lawkeeping, on the contrary the law only shows their SIN of self love.

By keeping the holy law of God, you make yourself a slave of SIN, a prisoner of SIN, and this SIN is self love that through the 10th commandment make your SIN looks exceeding sinful (Romans 7:7-11).

Love (agape) is fruit of the Spirit, that is imparted by the Holy Spirit to change your self love atitude that is the SIN in you if you live after the Spirit by faith in Christ. And when you did this, you live in accordance with the law because love is the fulfilment of the law.

By living after the Spirit with faith, who need any law even the 10 commandments to keep and obey?

On the contrary when you want to keep the law, SIN will be your master, because it is SIN who controlled your will and doing.

The desire of the Spirit is against the desire of the flesh, they can not work together and support each other. You have only one choice, to live by the flesh or to live by the Spirit. By keeping the law you live by the flesh, but if you want to live by the Spirit, you didn't need any law to keep and obey. This is faith! Because you believe that the Spirit will lead you to all righteousness and holy life and love will be the fruit of your faith.

By keeping the law as a standard for living, you have shown that you have no faith, as without the law you don't know what sin is and so might do and free to do evil. But this is living after the flesh, either you are under the law or not. And whoever live for the flesh, a believer or not, he will surely die because there is no place in heaven for self loving people.

By keeping the law SIN will be your master!

In His love

James S.

James

Good point. But I think maybe the way you're stating it is confusing. I like the way you make a distinction between keeping the law with and without the love of Jesus, but to simply say - Keeping the law makes us a slave to sin - gives the impression that you don't believe obedience is a part of salvation (which I know you don't believe).

Obedience is as much a gift and fruit of the Spirit as is love. Obedience leads unto righteousness. But I like your point about not making obedience our goal, rather we should make Jesus our goal and obedience will follow.

ROMANS
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 CORINTHIANS
10:5, 6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Mike.

The point is that we can not do anything "good". Read Roman 7:7-23 and you will find out that from our self we can do nothing good, what we can do is just doing evil. Why? Because if what is "good" before God and His holy law is "love that seeks no self", then our "deeds" is all bad (evil) because it is based on our nature which is self love.

The SIN in us is our nature of self love, that will be exposed whenever we want to do "good", such as keeping God law. That's why the law could never justify us based on our obedience, what it can do is just revealing our SIN and by that condemn us with death as the wage of SIN.

Because "love" is fruit of the Spirit, we could only have this love in our heart if we live by faith and according to the Spirit.

And when we have the love of God in our heart, all our deeds will be in harmony with the law. We are now doing "good" and no more doing evil.

Our deeds will be in harmony with the law doesn't mean that we keep the law as a standard of living and an obligation to keep, but because it is solely done by the pirit in us eventhough there is no law for us.

Doing evil is our nature, doing "good" is "the willing and the doing of God".

So, you have only 2 ways of living, to live for the flesh or to live for God. If you want live for God, you must have faith in Hin and He will sealed you with His Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), just then you will have love as fruit of the Spirit. otherwise you are still living for the flesh, it doesn't matter you keep or not keeping the law.

The point is that by keeping the law you are under the law because SIN will be your master as all your deeds in keeping the law is based on SIN of self love.

But when you live by the Spirit, the righteous demands of the law (love that seeks no self) will be fulfilled in you without any effort from you to keep and obey any law.

Remember, that the desire of the Spirit is against the desire of the flesh, it can not support each other. You live by the Spirit or you live by the flesh, you live by faith or you live by the law, it is your choice.

In His love

James S.

James, here's what I wrote in my last post:

"Obedience is as much a gift and fruit of the Spirit as is love. Obedience leads unto righteousness. But I like your point about not making obedience our goal, rather we should make Jesus our goal and obedience will follow."

Does this agree with the intent of your post?

Mike.

I agree 100% with you.

So, if obedience is a fruit of the Spirit and a gift, do you still need the 10 commandments as a standard of living righteously?

In His love

James S