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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77293
07/18/06 09:30 AM
07/18/06 09:30 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
Quote.
Christ was not created; He was begotten
Unquote.
What does that means? A bit vague for me.
In His love
James S
All I know is that Christ was brought forth / begotten from the Father. Is it vague, it may seem so but there is a reason for it and God will make it known to His children when it fits His Will.
Trust the Word of God
Peace and Grace
David
=======
Spelling correction only. - Daryl 
Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 07/18/06 07:53 PM.
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77294
07/18/06 01:57 PM
07/18/06 01:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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From my dialog with people who have issues with the trinity, or the word trinity or anything related to it, they always seem to say in not so many words that Jesus was created, and I am not referring to Him being born from a virgin either. They may use words such as brought forth, or begotten, but the fact is that while this is all very true indeed, they dont exactly deny that they believe Hewas created at one time. Christ Himself said that "This is eternal life that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent." We have the Father calling His Son, God. We have the Pharisees who were going to stone Him because he forgives sin, we have Jesus telling the pharisees that before Abraham was I AM, not I WAS at a certain point in time, but I AM, yesterday, today and tomorrow. Nothing vague about Jesus Christ, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among men. Easy as that. Why all the fuss? There shall be no other gods before me is right, that is the Father. No one comes to the Father but through Christ. So when you pray pray "Our Father which art in heaven". God Bless, Will ======== Spelling correction only. - Daryl
Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 07/18/06 07:55 PM.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77295
07/18/06 03:25 PM
07/18/06 03:25 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Will, I believe that Christ was the only begotten Son of the Father, but I also believe there was never a time when Christ did not exist. Ellen White calls Him "Jehovah, the Self-Existent One." I agree with 1888's point that Christ was "brought forth." This is what I understand "begotten" to mean. The idea is not that Christ was created, as if there was some time that He didn't exist, but before God created beings with whom to communicate, there was no need for Christ to emerge, if that's a good word. It was always the plan that Christ would be the representative of the Father, but before creation there was no need for Him to do this work, so there was no need for Him to be "brought forth." I also agree with the statement that Christ is the same as the Father in character. The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that had Christ remained in heaven and the Father had come instead, that the history of His life on earth would have been no different. I have reservations with the word "trinity" because it has Catholic baggage, and because it is a word that Ellen White never used. ========== Spelling correction only. - Daryl
Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 07/18/06 08:00 PM.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77296
07/18/06 04:33 PM
07/18/06 04:33 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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That sounds pretty clear to me Tom.Thanks for making that clear for others. God Bless, Will ========== Spelling correction only. - Daryl
Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 07/18/06 08:03 PM.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77298
07/18/06 07:39 PM
07/18/06 07:39 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Can you share what you think firstborn means to you John as referenced in Colossians? God Bless, Will ========== Spelling correction only. - Daryl
Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 07/18/06 08:05 PM.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77299
07/19/06 12:30 AM
07/19/06 12:30 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
Will, I believe that Christ was the only begotten Son of the Father, but I also believe there was never a time when Christ did not exist. Ellen White calls Him "Jehovah, the Self-Existent One."
I agree with 1888's point that Christ was "brought forth." This is what I understand "begotten" to mean. The idea is not that Christ was created, as if there was some time that He didn't exist, but before God created beings with whom to communicate, there was no need for Christ to emerge, if that's a good word. It was always the plan that Christ would be the representative of the Father, but before creation there was no need for Him to do this work, so there was no need for Him to be "brought forth."
I also agree with the statement that Christ is the same as the Father in character. The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that had Christ remained in heaven and the Father had come instead, that the history of His life on earth would have been no different.
I have reservations with the word "trinity" because it has Catholic baggage, and because it is a word that Ellen White never used.
==========
Spelling correction only. - Daryl
To me the trinity is catholic and paganism both at the same time. The word trinity means triune god or three gods in one.
I know that Christ was given the name of God by His father for that is a name above all other names. But the two are not the same person as the trinity tries to make them seem to be. There is the Father and there is the Son. The Son is the express imagine of the Father and does the Fathers prefect Will. If you see the Son then you have seen the Father. However they are not the part of this three in one god thing. This is where the problem lies with many non-trinitarians. (All three are all gods but there is only one god)
The prophecy in Isa 9:6 tells us that when the governments have been put upon His shoulders then He will be called “Mighty God” not “the Almighty God”.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77300
07/19/06 02:05 AM
07/19/06 02:05 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Can you share what you think firstborn means to you John as referenced in Colossians?
Christ was born of his Father’s spirit. It is a spiritual birth. He was born before all other creation, thus born first. It is the same kind of birth that we are called to.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commanrment or not?
#77301
07/19/06 04:27 AM
07/19/06 04:27 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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My, my……. This really become very interesting.
It never come to my attention to question what Trinity is, to question is Jesus God or the Son of God until the day I read David post in the Sabbath school lesson.
Now, I really must find out the truth because as the scripture said: Knowing God is eternal life, which makes this discussion becomes really worthy.
Now, a vague picture start building in my mind that all the time when I believe Christ is the same God as God the Father, so is the Holy Spirit, is not correct, but I want to make sure through the development of this discussion.
I understand that this is a very delicate topic and must be discussed with care and lots of pray because for me, it would bring a shift of faith.
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77302
07/19/06 04:36 AM
07/19/06 04:36 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote.
Christ was born of his Father’s spirit. It is a spiritual birth. He was born before all other creation, thus born first. It is the same kind of birth that we are called to.
Unquote.
This is what the Moslem’s are fighting against ever since they came in history. Never comes to my mind that Christ was brought forth in a sense he was born of the Father’s Spirit.
John, your view is against Tom’s view that there was never a time that Christ didn’t exist.
Common Tom, I want to hear your biblical argument against John.
In His love
James S
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