Mike,

I do not think you have posed that question to me.....i know you don't believe that nor have i accused you of believing it....

Praise God He does the wooing and we do the responding......He does the knocking and we do the opening of the door.....He does the cleansing after we come to Him "Just like we are", a sin sick soul in need of healing.

Happy Sabbath

When the Shepherd finds the little stray sheep, He picks it up, and carries it lovingly in His arms back to the fold. It is still dirty, cold, and covered in briars if it has strayed far. But it is saved. And if it rests in the care of the Shepherd, it will be cleaned, fed, and tenderly cared for, until only the Shepherd remembers that it was once lost.

Was it saved - converted - before the briars were gone? Yes.

Charlene, thank you for your kind support. I hope I didn't hurt you or anyone else for asking that question of the forum in general. Praise God for everything Jesus is doing to save us now and for ever. Amen!

Zyph, thank you for those comforting words. I love the sheep/Shepherd analogy. Jesus is so good. And we need Him so desperately - all of the time.

Also, I'm sure you remember the post where I wrote we are "saved" the very moment we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. We are in a saved state as soon we enter the outer court of the sanctuary, as soon as we begin the process of conversion, even before we actually experience the miracle of rebirth.

Being saved doesn't depend on whether or not we have time to completely crucify all of our defects and imperfections of character. We are saved so long as we are progressing at God's pace for us. We are saved so long as we do not stubbornly cling to some pet darling sin, some cherished defect of character we just refuse to lay aside for Jesus.

We are saved during the process of conversion, but we are not yet converted or born again. Salvation and conversion are not necessarily one and the same thing. We do not experience the miracle of rebirth until after self is completely dead and buried. Conversion or rebirth is something that God does to us instanteously the moment He brings us to the place where we consent to crucify our last defect of character.

But all along the way, during the process of conversion, before we are converted or born again, we are saved, so long as we do not cling to known sin.

Mike,
Let me put it in my own words then tell me what you think about the way if see this "New Birth" "conversion" teaching.

I see the new birth like a couple falling in love. First is the "infatuation", [seed of love planted] then the relationship continues and the infatuation takes and grows root and deepen into genuine true love that is consumated into marriage and a life long deep relationship of selflesness, living to please our chosen mate {Jesus].

New Birth: Mar 4:28
"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear."

New Birth: A Beginning that blossoms and deepens and matures.

Conversion: Starts with new birth and ends with settling into the truth spiritually and intellectually and can not be moved.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4-- EZE3---PG- 1161
(Rev. 7:2.) Seal Is a Settling Into Truth. Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, to give us warning,
that we may know what is coming "(MS 173, 1902).

Growing in Christ.....Love the only true motive.

another thought,

New birth may be the completed conversion....."Thief on the Cross" and the like scenarios, brands plucked from the buning, loud cry converts........the deepening of the experience to take place in heaven.....

what do you think?

Mike, you wrote: "But all along the way, during the process of conversion, before we are converted or born again, we are saved, so long as we do not cling to known sin."

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

You know that at the time the Shepherd has found the straying sheep, it is saved, dirt, briars, and all. Don't you think this verse should cause you to reassess your understanding of when we are converted or born again?

Charlene, thank you for that lovely illustration. To me it places conversion and the new life in a beautiful light. In another thread I wrote that Jesus is the best example of the seed-to-blossom illustration. We receive the sinless seed of the new man the moment self is dead and we're born again. We begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. And the marriage illustration is another awesome way to share this truth. Thank you.

Zyph, thank you for being persistent with me. I'm sorry I failed to adequately address this text. I believe Jesus explained the born again experience to Nicodemus in it's entirety. I don't Jesus took the time then and there to explain the "what if" someone dies before they complete the process of conversion.

There will be in heaven people Jesus saved in His kingdom who never even heard the name of Jesus. They will be in heaven because they exhibited the kind of commitment to conscience that it takes to be in heaven. It would be incorrect, according to the biblical description of the born again state and condition, to conclude that people such as these were converted and born again.

This is why I believe we are saved, not based on whether we are converted or born again, but based on what Jesus has done for us and on whether or not we have accepted Him as our personal Saviour. Should we die before God has had time to reveal all our defects and before we have time to live up to all the light necessary to be translated alive - I believe we are saved still.

If we conclude that rebirth happens the moment we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, then what should we do with passages like 1 John 3:9? We would have to twist it to mean something it doesn't say. And in what way is Jesus the perfect example of a born again believer if it means we begin with all our defects? What do you think?

just a short comment on the following verse....

1Jo 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Selected Messages Book 1----PG- 382

When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept
those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easygoing,
accommodating, crossless religion. But Jesus says,
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."-- The Signs of the Times, June 16, 1890.

Charlene, thank you for that awesome quote. Ellen White had a wonderful understanding of the truth and a marvelous way of sharing it. So encouraging!

It is Bible and SOP quotes like these that make it clear to me that being born again is a miracle, and a completed process. Since being born again means we have been totally and completely delivered from the burden of our siful defects of character, it is obvious from this fact that we are not born again the moment we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. Because at that point we are still full of sin. We are saved, yes, but we are not a newborn babe in Christ until after self is dead and buried.

We are saved so long as we are cooperating with God and progressing at His pace, and then we are converted and born again the moment self is dead and God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man. Because according to the biblical description of a born again believer they are dead to sin and free from sin and awake to righteousness - they begin perfect and become perfect just like Jesus. To me that is good news.

I see the conflict of the old man and the new man beginning at the new birth experience. There was no need of conflict before then, for Satan was the master.

We fight against our new nature when give give our hearts to Christ.
We give him our wills and He must change our loves to hates. We dont even have the desire to be conformed to the word of God until our new Birth experience. Now this is the result of my studies, but i pray that i am still willing to learn. May God be with this study and open our minds to His truth. God Bless