Thanks for the quote MM.

What I do not understand is how there could be a genuine controversy, much less a controversy about the character of God, given your view of God’s control.

Good point. I don't completely understand it, either. Before our Godhead created any FMAs, sinning and death were not possible. But then They contemplated creating FMAs capable of sinning and dying. Knowing in advance that Lucifer, one third of the angels, and the human race would introduce sin and death, They chose to create them anyhow.

Eventually, Lucifer rebelled, and the great controversy was born. There was war in heaven, and yet, our Godhead chose not to punish and destroy the evil angels at that time. The loyal angels would not have understood the ultimate relationship between sinning, death, punishment, and destruction, and so the evil angels were cast down to earth.

Our Godhead created mankind, on the same planet They banished the evil angels, knowing in advance that Adam and Eve would fail to disprove Satan's accusations, by refusng to eat the forbidden fruit, and thereby vindicate the kingdom and character of our Godhead. And yet They chose to create them anyhow.

But our first parents were not in the same position as the evil angels, and our Godhead knew in advance that the plan of salvation would, on a specific day and hour, vindicate Their kingdom and character, thus the great controversy includes the human race. Our Godhead is orchestrating the great controversy in such a way that the outcome vindicates Their kingdom and character, thus restoring law and order and peace.

MM, you seem to be inconsistent in the view you are presenting. At first you speak in terms of "control" and "regulating" and nothing happens except what God "manages" which even includes evil angels. This implies predestination, not like foreknowledge. But then when you explain the Great Controversy you speak more in terms of Classic Armenianism, which is that God does not predestine the future but merely foresees it.

To set the issue simply, let me just ask what your view is regarding Lucifer. Did Lucifer sin because God controlled him? Did he sin because that's what God intended? In other words, was Lucifer simply carrying out God's will? Or did he act contrary to God's will, thus carrying out a plan contrary to God's will?

God could have chosen not to create FMAs. But that's not what He did. In spite of the fact He knew Lucifer and mankind would choose to rebel He created them anyhow. From the very beginning God has been in control of His choices and the consequences of His choices. God foresaw their rebellion, but He did God ordain it. He did not force them to rebel. He knew it would happen, and He made provision for it in advance – from eternity.

CS 274
Forethought is of far more value than afterthought--when a neglect of wise calculation and careful management is plainly seen to result in failure. {CS 274.2}

DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

ST 4-25-92
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Therefore redemption was not an afterthought--a plan formulated after the fall of Adam--but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {ST, April 25, 1892 par. 1}

MM

Your first quote is way out of context!: EGW is talking of sanitarium workers getting in debt, not God orchestrating evil angels and WWII!


Haven't you seized upon a word, "afterthought", ran with that, when no one here uses that term?

Back in Nov.13, 2001 you stated:

"If God is ever not in control then Satan's accusations about Him would be true."

Which control accusations are you refering to?

Is this in agreement with "Satan's accusations" or your thoughts, MM:

""We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which He determined with Himself what He willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather eternal life is preordained for some, eternal damnation for others."

Phil, do you agree that forethought is of far more value than afterthought? If so, do you also agree that God foresaw the fall of men and angels? that His plan for dealing with sin, salvation, and the great controversy was not an afterthought?

Do you agree that Satan has accused of God of being unfair, selfish, indifferent, and many other things? As I see it, since God chose to create FMAs, knowing that men and angels would sin and rebel, it is His responsibility to implement a plan to deal with it, which, of course, He did. However, it would make God indifferent if He refused to manage it, and incompetent if it failed, both of which would support Satan’s accusations about God.

God could have had a plan of salvation in place, if sin were to rise and that would have been forethought; without him having to see to it that sin would arise, which would have been a plan.

Gents: Should we attempt to stick with Mike's original topic: God controls everything, and deal with foreknowledge somewhere else??

MM[ appears to teach that God manipulates people, death, Satan, angels, elements and time itself for His own self-justification.

Is not that what Satan actually accuses Him of? Is not Satan's argument that Christ Himself sets demands that only He can keep and then kills all who cannot meet it, unless they do what He says?

Isn't Satan saying control IS the issue?