Jean,

This is in comment to your thoughts on some of Dan. 11. We must study deeply. When we do we will see that, because of the ties between different prophecies, putting one thing in the future puts more into the future than is really possible.

As I pointed out above, Ellen White is crystal clear that Dan. 11:30-36 will never happen again. This point is vital to the very existence of Adventism for the following reason:

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And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. ... And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan. 11:33-35)

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A careful reading of Dan. 8 reveals that the one specific part of the book of Daniel that is explicitly stated to be sealed is the 2300 days. This is tied into Rev. 10. After the conclusion of the 1260 days, Daniel is unsealed, and the soon approaching conclusion of the 2300 days is announced.

I say all this to point out the following: If vss. 33-35 are to have a future fulfillment in the time of trouble, then after such a future 1260 literal days Dan. 8:14 will be unsealed. Then there will be a world-wide proclamation of the future end of the 2300 days. Then after that there will be a bitter disappointment. Then after that there will be a second world-wide proclamation ("Thou must prophesy again").

At the same time as that second proclamation, the temple, the altar, and the worshippers will be measured (Rev. 11:1). Measure means "judge" in Mat. 7:2, and it was these three entities that were cleansed on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16:16, 19, 20, 30). In other words, while that second proclamation is going on, the cleanising of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment will take place.

Personally, I cannot fathom how the world will last that long in order to have a second Millerite Movement, a second cleansing of the sanctuary, a second investigative judgment, and a second loud cry.

The only way the New Age Movement could fit into Dan. 11:38 is if you somehow have that take place after the time of the end has already commenced. That seems to go against a simple reading of vs. 40.

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Mark Shipowick,

What you stated at first glance appears correct, but we must dig deeply.

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And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. ... And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Rev. 13:3-5)

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Think about it for a moment: How can anyone say that the papacy does not yet have a blasphemous mouth? How could what he say in the future ever be so much more blasphemous than what he has already said, to the point that we can identify a future date on which he first received a blasphemous mouth?

To put it simply, the statement about receiving a blasphemous mouth is a clue that the prophecy has just jumped back in time to a year prior to 538.

On the 1335 days, I have read nothing that indicates that those who live at the end of those days have escaped the great tribulation. But I have read where Ellen White unequivocally said that the 1290 and/or the 1335 days had already ended.

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Jean,

I think you are reading into 9BC 979 what is not there. Everything in Rev. 13 will take place, that is true, and some of it already has, as Ellen White made very plain.

Regarding moed, please note that the difference between Dan. 7 and 12 is that they were written in two different languages. Thus the use of two different words is to be expected. More importantly, developing further what I wrote above about the time of the end and the many days of Dan. 11, first Dan. 12:4 says that Daniel's book is to be sealed until the time of the end. Then someone asks, When shall be the end (vs. 6)? When shall Daniel be unsealed? When is the time of the end? The answer is tied to the 3 and a half times (vs. 7).

What I am saying is that if Ellen White was wrong in saying that the time periods of Dan. 12 were already done, then Daniel 8:14 is not yet unsealed or fulfilled, and the cleansing of the sanctuary has not yet started.

You'll probably want those quotes on the 1290 and 1335 days, so here they are:

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Daniel stood in his lot to bear his testimony which was sealed until the time of the end, when the first angel's message should be proclaimed to our world. (TM 115)

"Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou (Daniel) thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

Daniel is to-day standing in his lot, and we are to give him place to speak to the people. (AUCR 03-11-07)

[Dan. 12:12, 13, quoted]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. (1SAT 225, 226)

The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. . . . How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. (GC 488)

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One ramification of all of this is that if Daniel is still sealed because the time periods of Daniel 12 are yet future, then there is no point discussing any of this since it is still sealed! We have to wait till the time of trouble before we can understand it!

I love the Lord. I love His Word. I love present truth. I love prophecy. I love His church. After years of study, I am more convicted than ever that we haven't followed cunningly devised fables as a people. What we have taught in the past is generally sound, solid, and provable upside down while blind folded.

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The key to a correct understanding of these verses lies in verse 40 just like verse 3 of Rev.17 gives us the point of reference for the five that have fallen and for the one that is and the one that is yet to come.

The book The Great Controversy provides us with the point of time referred to in verse 40 of Dan.11. Not only that but the book provides us also with the identity of who the king of the south is at that point of time and who the king of the north is. Everyone will agree that if the Lord has already told us who these kings are and the time referred to in this verse, then it would become much easier to understand verses 41-45, right?

In my next post, I propose to provide you with that information. Please forget about the human agent and focus on what the statements are saying and go from there. May God and His word and the testimonies of His Spirit be exalted and the human agent be kept out of sight! Thank you.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited October 13, 2001).]

We all know that in Old Testament times, Egypt was the king of the South. Babylon was the king of the north and Israel was the glorious land. That was the geography then. But in 1798 the king of the south is a spiritual king. In the Great Controversy, in the chapter, The French Revolution, Sister White states that 1798 is the time refered to in verse 40 of Dan.11 and she mentions Atheistic France as the king of the South "pushing" at the papacy, the king of the north in 1798. She states that this is the time of the end refered to in verse 40.

But the wound is to be healed. The papacy will regain the supremacy of the world. In verses 40-45 we have a picture of world domination by the papacy. "And He shall enter the glorious land." The glorious land after 1798 until 1844 was a spiritual land where the protestant faith was to be found. After 1844, the Advent movement became the "glorious land."

"The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem." Lamentations 4:12.

This is a description of the past and a prophecy of the future. "Money has been expended in sending men to Jerusalem, to see the place where Jesus traveled and taught, when we have the precious Savior nigh us, His presence with us, and we may have a Jerusalem in our own houses and in the churches." T.M.345,346.

The enemy entered through the gates of Jerusalem. It was God's purpose that Jerusalem should be inpregnable to the assaults of her enemies. But she was destroyed. The enemy entered through her gates.

It was God's purpose that the SDA church should be protected with an encompassing spiritual wall of fire that the powers of hell should not prevail against her. But alas the enemy has entered through her gates because she has forsaken the holy covenant and has had intelligence with the man of sin, the king of the north, (Dan.11:30) and with his image at the time when the pillars of our faith were compromised in order to gain the favor of so called Christendom. (Between 1955 and 1957)

"But a small number of those now professing to believe the truth will eventually be saved--not because they could not be saved, but because they would not be saved in God's own appointed way." 2 T 445.

But many will escape from the other churches. Many in Babylon will overcome the papacy and its image. They will respond to the "tidings from the east" when the message of redemption through the merits of Christ is sounded from one end of the earth to the other.

This will enraged the papacy, the king of the north, and in the end he will issue a death decree
to rid the earth of those whom he can't control.

Through the papacy, "Satan has planted his satanic throne between the human worshiper and the divine Father." E.G.W. 7 Manuscript Release, p.215; Daniel 11:45.

But at the time when the wicked, urged on by the papacy and its image, are about to slay those whom they can't control (those who are faithful to God to the end) thick darkness will fall upon the earth (fifth plague) and next the wicked will see the sign of God's covenant spanning the heavens and encircling the faithful few. They will fall at the feet of the saints and acknowledge that God has loved them!

Then they will begin accusing one another for being eternally lost but all will agree to put the blame on the ministers, the priests and the leaders. The angry multitudes, the waters of Rev.17, are suddenly arrested. Their mocking cries die away. The object of their murderous rage are forgotten. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed.
See G.C.635,636,654,654.

This is the drying up of the river Euphrates. The support of the people is dried up and Babylon the Great will fall! "He shall come to his end and none to help him." Dan.11:45.

In Rev.17 this drying up of the support of the people and the fall of Babylon are described in these words: "They shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." Rev.17:16.

This is the fate of the papacy and her supporters!

Bob, below is a quote from Sister White on Revelation 10. This passage is fascinating. It’s probably one of the best and longest examples of Ellen White’s dual applications. I’ve only quoted part of it below to give you its flavour, but the rest of it continues in the same mode combining past applications with future fulfillments. (For those who are not familiar with conventional SDA teaching on Revelation 10, from the pioneers forward, this chapter has been viewed as a description of the Millerite movement, the little book representing the prophecies of Daniel which the Millerites ate with relish, but which turned bitter in their stomachs when the Advent didn‘t take place.) But notice here that Ellen White again points to a dual, future application:

“The controversy has waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so, to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. Satan, united with evil men, will deceive the whole world and the churches who receive not the love of the truth. But the mighty angel demands attention. He cries with a loud voice. He is to show the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth. After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second and third angel's messages to be given to the world.” (Manuscript 59, 1900).SDA Bible Commentary, v. 7 p. 971

Bob, you did some analysis of Ellen White’s quotes that Jean brought to our attention. A senior SDA pastor that I highly respect did the same for me regarding the above quote. Like you, he concluded that what EGW was REALLY saying was that Revelation 10 was in the past. I still respect this individual’s opinions highly, but like you, I think he misses the clear intention of EGW’s statement in his efforts to “save” conventional SDA teaching. He had to go to great lengths and used some tenuous arguments to shore up his case. He also thought I hadn’t dug deeply, but if you dig deeply enough to find something that isn’t there in the first place - our conventional understanding only - you may find it.

I’d suggest that we all need to place the many quotes from the SOP that could have a dual application in front of us and take another candid look at them collectively and suspend our own opinions for the moment. We need to do the same with the biblical prophecies and read them to get their intent and not worry for the moment about what the official position of the church is. In 1888 most of the leaders of the church believed that Jones and Waggoner threatened to undo the conventional wisdom of SDA doctrine and the cry was raised, “stay with the landmarks”. But Ellen White sided with the “radicals,” stating that the fears of doing violence to the “landmards” were unfounded.

What kind of God do we serve if Revelation speaks primarily to past events and has little to say about the time when the church is tested and the world called to account? Surely the Lord will do nothing but that he will first reveal it to us through the prophetic gift.

Bob, have you or anyone else made a study of the symbol of the sleeping prophets in Daniel 10:9 and Zechariah 4:1 and Rev. 11:1? I think God is telling us that prophecy lies dormant for the most part until shortly before the final ordeal begins, and then Daniel and his companion prophets awaken to “speak” to us - not just once, but throughout that period as the seven thunders dictate.

[This message has been edited by Mark Shipowick (edited October 13, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mark Shipowick (edited October 13, 2001).]

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Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Somebody asked me the meaning of the following verses:

While I research it myself, does anybody have any thoughts to share about the meaning of these verses?

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

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Verse 40: Says "And the time of the end..." which suggests that these verses are for the "last days." an alternate view of attention is that some feel that verses 40-43 refer to Napoleon's rise to power and consequent wars at the end of the 1260 year prophecy. - BETTY

"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power--the papal power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a spirit from beneath." 7 B.C.983. And all the nations of the glove will follow the example of Apostate Protestantism.

Satan, through his vicegerent, the pope, has planted the tabernacles of his palaces between the seas, the human worshiper, and the glorious holy mountain, the divine Father. "Satan has planted his satanic throne between the human worshiper (the seas of Rev.17:15 and Dan.11:45) and the divine Father (God's throne)." 7 Manuscript Release, p.215. The papacy will not be satisfied until the whole world worships at her feet!

When all nations are paying homage to the papacy, when the whole world worships the beast and its image, who would be foolish enough to stubbornly refuse to give allegiance to these powers? Then Satan will claim that he has a kingdom.

But a little company will stand in the way. During the loud cry, referred to as the "tidings out of the east and out of the north" "he shall be troubled," because "many shall escape from his hand, Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon." (These had a common spiritual background with Abraham)

The people of Edom were the descendants of Esau; Moab and Ammon were the two sons Lot's daughters bore to him; these tribes have vanished from the face of the earth. Therefore, they are a type of the Catholics and Protestants who have a common spiritual background with the true church of God in these last days, with spiritual Israel. Many of them shall escape and will not receive the mark of the usurped authoritiy of the papacy to change the law of God.

The church of God will appear to fall but it does not fall. At the time when the people of God are surrounded by dangers, waiting for the swords of their enemies to fall on them, God will intervene, and the people will see that they have been deceived and, too late, will withdraw their support from the beast and its image and Babylon will not only fall but she will be destroyed at the hand of those who once were most devoted for the success of her cause!

It appears that the pastor who went to great lengths didn't really have to. Look at the next sentence after the ones you quoted, along with the last sentence you quoted:

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Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second and third angel's messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time.

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But continuing on in the quote:

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The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer.

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The seven thunders occur under the 1st and 2nd angels' messages, not the 3rd.

There will be increased light on the prophecies, and when it comes there will be a great revival among us. But some of the stuff today that purports to be great light is really great darkness. Now I'm not speaking as an outsider, but as one who dabbled in these things for two years after hearing a speaker when I was in College in 1982.

I was greatly blessed by his presentations. Before one began he had a few minutes, and he shared a few thoughts about Dan. 7 without saying what he was saying. Later it hit me that he was saying that the four beasts weren't Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The passage itself seemed to demand it. It was a year before I found out by accident about a nuance of Hebrew grammar that nullified the point he made, and it was another year before I quit speculating.

Now I approach these things differently. I first look for additional new light that reinforces the old, and God has richly blessed this approach. Not that some details don't need changing, like paganism and 508, or the Lombards being one of the 10 horns, or the meaning of "south, east, and pleasant land" in Daniel 8. But the broad outlines are correct as is.

Back to the speaker. I wrote him about something around 1988. He responded saying he was glad that someone was willing to look at the issues. Then I thought through that quote on Dan. 11 that said history will be repeated. The Lord opened my eyes to show me that the quote was really saying there would be no second fulfillment of Dan. 11:30-36. I wrote him a second letter to that effect. He never responded.

He then had a choice to make. Give up the pet theories he had been working on for years, or give up confidence in the spirit of prophecy. When he decided I do not know, but he chose the latter. Eventually he preached a sermon saying that our pioneers were "flat, busted wrong," our prophet was wrong too, and the Bible writers were wrong too. He was then disfellowshipped for such views of inspiration. At some point he complained that notable liberals in the church have the same view of inspiration and yet are not disfellowshipped.

What a switch! In 1982 he was defending our beliefs against Ford's views. Now he's sort of in the same camp.

You mention Jones and Waggoner, but that's apples and oranges. 1) The law in Galatians wasn't a landmark. The sanctuary and its cleansing beginning in 1844, not some future date, is. 2) It wasn't because of the message that they were preaching that they left the Lord at some point. The message the speaker referred to was preaching led him to eventually reject the truth. 3) Ellen White never condemned the message they were preaching. She did condemn this stuff.

On the last point, notice that the passage you quoted from said the seven thunders were connected to the first and second angels' messages. If these thunders are still future, as you suggest, then the first and second angels' messages must also be still future. At the very least, we would have to say that they commenced in the past and, even though they are still being preached, they will have to commence a second time in the future. Now read this:

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False Teachers Misplace Prophecy.--In our day as in Christ's day, there may be a misreading and misinterpreting
of the Scriptures. If the Jews had studied the Scriptures with earnest, prayerful hearts, their searching would have been rewarded with a true knowledge of the time, and not only the time, but also the manner of Christ's appearing. They would not have ascribed the glorious second appearing of Christ to His first advent. They had the testimony of Daniel; they had the testimony of Isaiah and the other prophets; they had the teachings of Moses; and here was Christ in their very midst, and still they were searching the Scriptures for evidence in regard to His coming. And they were doing unto Christ the very things that had been prophesied they would do. They were so blinded they knew not what they were doing.

And many are doing the same thing today, in 1897, because they have not had experience in the testing messages comprehended in the first, second, and third angel's messages. There are those who are searching the Scriptures for proof that these messages are still in the future. They gather together the truthfulness of the messages, but they fail to give them their proper place in prophetic history. Therefore such are in danger of misleading the people in regard to locating
the messages. They do not see and understand the time of the end, or when to locate the messages.

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If we can use Ellen White to say in one place what she condemns in another, then we can use the Bible to say that when we die we go to be with the Lord, and that the Sabbath is nailed to the cross, and that the wicked are going to toast forever and ever.

You write:

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What kind of God do we serve if Revelation speaks primarily to past events and has little to say about the time when the church is tested and the world called to account? Surely the Lord will do nothing but that he will first reveal it to us through the prophetic gift.

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Anyway, points most people agree on are (note: "now" doesn't mean just the last 10 years): some of Rev. 1 refers to our day, all the promises of the seven churches will be fulfilled soon, the last part of Rev. 3 refers to now, the last part of Rev. 5 is future, the 6th seal refers to now and the 7th is future, all of ch. 7 is applicable now, the angel offering incense in the censer is now, the 6th trumpet (including Rev. 10 & 11) refers to now, Rev. 12:17 is now, a good bit of Rev. 13 & 14 is now; 15 and 16 are future, some of 17 is future, all of 18-22 is future.

How much of Revelation do we think has to refer to us? So much of it already does.

Babylon or Syria, and Egypt. That's who they represent in the first part of Dan. 11. In Revelation we have a city which "is spiritually called ... Egypt," and we have a city which is spiritually called Babylon. Thus it would appear that the king of the south that pushed at the king of the north in 1798 could be atheistic France pushing at the papacy.

This idea is bolstered by two facts.

1) Albert Pike was a confederate general who was a leader of freemasonry. He wrote Morals and Dogma which states plainly that freemasonry is descended from the mysteries of ancient Egypt. It also states that a lodge of Knights Templar founded by Rouseau fomented the French Revolution, that they protected the king in order to enrage the people so that they would kill the king, and that as soon as the Knights got done with the Old Order in France, they were going to march to Italy to take care of the pope. Thus Pike provides a link between ancient Egypt, the French Revolution, and the deadly wound of 1798.

2) Archeologists find buried laws in Canaan and Mesopotamia, but not in Egypt. The religio-political philosophy of the north was such that the gods who were above the king gave him the laws to give to the people, and he had to obey the laws they handed down just like anyone else. It was a government by law. The religio-political philosophy of the south was such that pharoah was a god, no god was above him, and he didn't want what he said yesterday to conflict with what he said today, so nothing was written down. It was a government by man.

The religio-political philosophy of atheistic France, Lenin, and modern communism in general is an exact parallel to that of Egypt. The Encyclopedia Britannica describes Lenin's views in just this way.