The analogy, as I pointed out, had to with the logic. You are having difficult seeing the logic of your argument. I keep pointing out why your argument is not logical, and you keep not dealing with the logic, but rather with the content of individual statements. The logic has to do with how the individual statements are put together. As far as the logic of the argument is put together, the content of the statements does not matter, except as to whether or not they are true.

You stated that since a person is free to sin after being born again, therefore being born again cannot be the sole reason as to why they can overcome sin. This is an illogical argument. I have repeatedly pointed out why. I gave the other argument as a analogy to the faulty logic that you used. That is, the argument about the aspirin uses the same logic you are using. I gave you this analogy to try to help you to look at the argument as a whole, so you could see why it's not logical, rather than get bogged down on the individual statements, which is not what I was commenting on.

Nevertheless, you keep commenting on the individual statements, rather than on the logic of the argument.

TE: When we cooperate with the Holy Spirit, what is it that He does? Doesn't He enable us to think right? How can we do right without thinking right?

MM: Thinking right and having holy thoughts are different things. Just because God successfully “convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed” it doesn’t mean they are also capable of having holy thoughts. Cooperating with the Holy Spirit, abiding in Jesus, is what empowers us to have holy thoughts that are in harmony with the principles of right thinking.

TE: Right thinking does not come about merely as a result of God pointing out the truth. Why do you suggest this?

MM: I am making a distinction between knowing what is right, that is, knowing the truth about God’s law and character, and having holy thoughts that are in harmony with the truth as it is in Jesus. The devils believe and tremble. In other words, knowing what is right and true is not the same thing as be able to have holy thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds. So, how are you defining “right thinking”?

TE: You stated that since a person is free to sin after being born again, therefore being born again cannot be the sole reason as to why they can overcome sin. This is an illogical argument.

MM: For some reason you keep dissecting my statements and contrasting them in a way that is contrary to my intent. The way you miss match them does sound crazy. But for the life of me I cannot understand why you think the following two insights are illogical.

1. Rebirth and abiding in Jesus empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

2. Rebirth and abiding in Jesus, however, does not cause them to lose the ability or freedom to sin.

Again, please bear in mind that these statements relate to 1 John 3:6-9 where John describes rebirth and abiding in Jesus in the context of not sinning and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit (loving God and man).

Here's what you wrote, MM:



This is illogical. Do you understand this? I've explained why several times now. If you don't understand, just say, "No, I don't understand why this argument is illogical" and we don't need to discuss it anymore. I'll just live with your making statements like this.

I know you like authority based things, so here's a quote from the Spirit of Prophecy:



This is what I've been saying. (She even quoted the same verse I did, and used the same logic.) Now you can accept it as truth, because someone besides me said it.

The devils to not think right. If you think they do, you've really misunderstood things. I don't know why you'd bring them up.

Chapter 27 of "Mind, Health, and Personality" is entitled "Right Thinking." You might find that helpful to look at.

MM: Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

TE: This is illogical.

MM: I am arguing against the idea that rebirth and right thinking are the reasons why people "cannot sin" (verse 9). Rebirth and right thinking are not the reasons why they cannot sin. Abiding in Jesus is what gives them the ability and freedom to not sin. And only born again believers can abide in Jesus. Thus, rebirth by itself is not enough. It takes both. Combined they empower people to live in harmony with right thinking.

EGW: The only security for any soul is right thinking. As a man "thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Proverbs 23:7). --MH 491 (1905). {2MCP 666.3}

TE: This is what I've been saying. (She even quoted the same verse I did, and used the same logic.) Now you can accept it as truth, because someone besides me said it.

MM: Are you sure right thinking is our "only" security?

CH 594
Our only security against falling into sin is to keep ourselves continually under the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, at the same time engaging actively in the cause of truth and holiness, discharging every God-given duty, but taking no burden which God has not laid upon us. {CH 594.2}

4BC 1166
Unless they trust in the righteousness of Christ as their only security; unless they copy His character, labor in His spirit, they are naked, they have not on the robe of His righteousness. {4BC 1166.2}

8T 106
Man's only security against rash, ambitious movements is to keep the heart in harmony with Christ Jesus. Man's wisdom is untrustworthy. Man is fickle, filled with self-esteem, pride, and selfishness. {8T 106.1}

UL 75
Christ is our only security. We cannot trust to human reasoning. The world is full of men and women who cherish deceptive theories, and it is dangerous to listen to them. {UL 75.5}

MM: Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

TE: This is illogical.

MM: I am arguing against the idea that rebirth and right thinking are the reasons why people "cannot sin" (verse 9).

It doesn't matter what the purpose of your argument is. What you wrote above is illogical.

Rebirth and right thinking are not the reasons why they cannot sin. Abiding in Jesus is what gives them the ability and freedom to not sin. And only born again believers can abide in Jesus. Thus, rebirth by itself is not enough. It takes both. Combined they empower people to live in harmony with right thinking.

You're still not addressing the problem of your argument. You're making another argument, which we can discuss later. But first let's reach some sort of understanding on the previous one. The following statement is illogical:



It simply does not follow that rebirth is not the solitary condition that make is possible for born again believers not to sin from the premise that "born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." That this argument is illogical can be seen by substituting some other criterion which you do think is sufficient for "born again believers". Say you think "born again believers abiding in Jesus" is a sufficient criterion to not sin. Then your argument would read like this:



Your argument would never work, regardless of what you put in the place of "born again believers." It is fundamentally flawed.


EGW: The only security for any soul is right thinking. As a man "thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Proverbs 23:7). --MH 491 (1905). {2MCP 666.3}

TE: This is what I've been saying. (She even quoted the same verse I did, and used the same logic.) Now you can accept it as truth, because someone besides me said it.

You made a statement questioning Ellen White's statement and then quoting a bunch of other Ellen White statements. I'm sure you had some reason for doing this, but you didn't state what it was. Do you disagree with what she wrote?

TE: It doesn't matter what the purpose of your argument is. What you wrote above is illogical.

MM: Okay. You’re right. It is illogical. Thank you for pointing it out. Now we need to discuss the reason why born again believers “cannot sin” (verse 9).

TE: You made a statement questioning Ellen White's statement and then quoting a bunch of other Ellen White statements. I'm sure you had some reason for doing this, but you didn't state what it was. Do you disagree with what she wrote?

MM: I agree with everything she wrote about our “only” security, not with just the one quote you provided. I especially like this one - “Christ is our only security.” (UL 75)

TE: It doesn't matter what the purpose of your argument is. What you wrote above is illogical.

MM: Okay. You’re right. It is illogical. Thank you for pointing it out. Now we need to discuss the reason why born again believers “cannot sin” (verse 9).

This seems sarcastic. Here's something regarding sound arguments from Ellen White:



TE: You made a statement questioning Ellen White's statement and then quoting a bunch of other Ellen White statements. I'm sure you had some reason for doing this, but you didn't state what it was. Do you disagree with what she wrote?

MM: I agree with everything she wrote about our “only” security, not with just the one quote you provided. I especially like this one - “Christ is our only security.” (UL 75)

Well, she said the same thing I did, used the same logic, and used the same Scripture text. So if you agree with her, you agree with me.

TE: This seems sarcastic.

MM: I'm sorry. I am not being sarcastic. Let me know when you'd like to discuss the reason why born again believers “cannot sin” (verse 9). Thank you.

TE: Well, she said the same thing I did, used the same logic, and used the same Scripture text. So if you agree with her, you agree with me.

MM: Amen! Right thinking is crucial. But my favorite "only security" statement is “Christ is our only security.” (UL 75)