Tom, conversion is character transformation. We are creatures of habit. When we consciously say "yes, You be in control" to the Holy Spirit there is a complete transformation of the motivating principle of our lives. In saying "yes" we are assenting to the principles of righteousness in the Holy Law of God.

A conversion that assents to any standard other than the Divine will as manifest in scripture, summarized in those ten holy Words is suspect at best. Our Evangelical brothers and sisters, many of them sincere, would like to make a disconnect between the law and grace as though one is at odds with the other. In doing that they present a skewed picture of the character of God, his mercy and his justice. The genius of Adventism, and we can take no credit for it ourselves, is in its return to the ancient truths of scripture on this subject that mercy and truth are met together in Christ and that the government of God, his character is founded firmly on eternal legal principles, the rule of Law; that the gospel teaches liberty from sin, not by means of destroying the law, but by writing those sacred principles on our hearts.

Anyone who demeans the law demeans the character of God and of his Son. My goal in starting this thread is to point to the Mosaic Law and the character of God as being eternally one and the same and to point to the beauty of that law which the supposed servants of God have for decades and centuries, often ignorantly, been derogating.

Regarding the work of the law in 'converting the soul', in Psalm 19, David, Moses and the prophets understood the principles that Paul speaks of when he says that the 'letter kills' but the Spirit gives life. The law of the Spirit of life operates in the person through grace. The letter brings conviction but only when the individual responds by confession and repentance can the work of grace take place and the law be written on the heart.

This is the essence of the New Covenant isn't it - that in contrast to the Jews who said "All that the Lord has spoken we will do" but did not love or do the will of God, in the final generation there will be a people who may not make such a high profession but who will cherish the law in their hearts and who will immerse themselves in its principles.

I agree with this.

Mark, do you see that we are in disagreement somewhere?

MM: Tom, the following is an extract from a quote you posted to explain what happened when you were converted:


MM: How can you quote this passage to explain what happened when you were converted and then insist - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." Again, here is what she says happens when someone is converted:

1. “If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.” Again, this is not how you described your conversion. You make it clear you did not repent. You knew nothing of the law so you could not repent.

2. “The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” Neither does this describe your conversion. You knew nothing of the law, therefore, you knew nothing of obedience or the will of Christ.

3. “Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, ‘I delight to do Thy will, O my God.’ Ps. 40:8.” Again, this does not describe your conversion. You could not say with Christ, “I delight to do Thy will, O my God”, because you knew nothing of God’s will or His law.

Again, Tom, in light of the quote you posted, I do not see how you can say it describes what happened when you were converted. Jesus taught, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel.” And Peter proclaimed, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.” And yet you would have us believe you experienced conversion without repenting of your sins. You are contradicting Jesus Himself.

TE: My experience is by no means unique, MM. Your comments make me curious as if you understand what conversion is really about. It's not about sinful habits. It's about Christ.

MM: Again, in light of the quote you posted, in light of what Jesus and Peter said about it, how can you insist repenting is not necessary before we are converted, before we believe and receive the gospel?

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MM: Paul confessed, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." He is saying that he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. Paul did not experience true, genuine conversion and rebirth until after he understood the law of God.

TV: How differently two people can read the same passage. I understand Paul to be saying that "he died in sin as he understood the law of God."

TE: Paul says "when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." You write Paul says he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. These seem like opposites.

MM: Do you two really believe Paul was “alive” in sin before he had a saving knowledge of the law? Paul described it this way, “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.” (1 Tim 5:6) Indeed, Paul was not alive in sin. He was dead in sin and trespasses before he had a saving knowledge of the law.

Ephesians
2:1 And you … were dead in trespasses and sins …
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins …

Colossians
2:13 And you, being dead in your sins …

Again, Tom, in light of the quote you posted, I do not see how you can say it describes what happened when you were converted. Jesus taught, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel.” And Peter proclaimed, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.” And yet you would have us believe you experienced conversion without repenting of your sins.

I didn't say this.

You are contradicting Jesus Himself.

No I'm not. I quoted Sister White, and said that described my experience. If you're disagreeing with something I wrote, you need to quote it.

TE: My experience is by no means unique, MM. Your comments make me curious as if you understand what conversion is really about. It's not about sinful habits. It's about Christ.

MM: Again, in light of the quote you posted, in light of what Jesus and Peter said about it, how can you insist repenting is not necessary before we are converted, before we believe and receive the gospel?

No.

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MM: Paul confessed, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." He is saying that he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. Paul did not experience true, genuine conversion and rebirth until after he understood the law of God.

TV: How differently two people can read the same passage. I understand Paul to be saying that "he died in sin as he understood the law of God."

TE: Paul says "when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." You write Paul says he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. These seem like opposites.

MM: Do you two really believe Paul was “alive” in sin before he had a saving knowledge of the law?

Paul was convicted of his need for Christ because he realized he was unable to keep the law. That's what he's saying. This conviction of his inability to provide the righteousness the law requires was death to him. That's why he says he died. What EV wrote is right. He "died" as he understood the law of God.

A saving knowledge of the law? In all the reading of Pauls letters that I have done, this is one aspect of the law I havent found mentioned yet. Could you tell me where to find it? In the context I have found, Paul does not qualify what kind of knowledge of the law he is refering to, merely that: Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death: for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.

It migth be that the truth of both mercy and Truth joining in the person Jesus Christ is the genious of theoretical adventism. In the adventism one is likely to encounter however, either one of those is likly to be treated as Cindirella, the stepchild who must sneak out to be able to go to the ball.

John, say some more about "legal principles" please.

TE: I didn't say this.

MM: Then what did you mean when you said - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." How did you know what sin was if you didn’t even know what the Ten Commandments were? That's what Paul would want to know, right? How can you repent without knowledge of sin? Jesus told His disciples how to help others experience conversion and rebirth.

He said, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” Is this what happened when you were converted? Were you taught to observe “all things” Jesus commanded?

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MM: You are contradicting Jesus Himself.

TE: No I'm not. I quoted Sister White, and said that described my experience.

MM: But your description does not coincide with Sister White’s description. Please read the quoted section above. It plainly shows how your description is different. And it certainly does not coincide with what Jesus said about it.

TE: If you're disagreeing with something I wrote, you need to quote it.

MM: I did. Here is what I quoted - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." This is the fourth time I’ve quoted it.

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TE: No.

MM: Then what are you saying? What is the truth about repentance and observing “all things” Jesus commanded us to observe as it relates to the gospel and conversion?

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TE: Paul was convicted of his need for Christ because he realized he was unable to keep the law. That's what he's saying. This conviction of his inability to provide the righteousness the law requires was death to him. That's why he says he died. What EV wrote is right. He "died" as he understood the law of God.

MM: Tom, in response to my post you said, “You write Paul says he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. These seem like opposites.” Do you think Paul was “alive in sin” before he acquired a saving knowledge of the law? What do you think is "opposites”?