TV: A saving knowledge of the law? In all the reading of Pauls letters that I have done, this is one aspect of the law I havent found mentioned yet. Could you tell me where to find it?

MM: Thomas, I believe it is inherent in what Paul wrote. One of the many things the law does is it points us to Jesus, who alone can save us. Tom Ewall might be able to explain it better. Here’s how Sister White describes it:

FW 29
Sanctification is obtained only in obedience to the will of God. Many who are willfully trampling upon the law of Jehovah claim holiness of heart and sanctification of life. But they have not a saving knowledge of God or of His law. They are standing in the ranks of the great rebel. He is at war with the law of God, which is the foundation of the divine government in heaven and in the earth. These men are doing the same work as their master has done in seeking to make of none effect God's holy law. No commandment-breaker can be permitted to enter heaven; for he who was once a pure and exalted covering cherub was thrust out for rebelling against the government of God. {FW 29.2}

OHC 141
What is to bring the sinner to the knowledge of his sins unless he knows what sin is? The only definition of sin in the Word of God is given us in 1 John 3:4. "Sin is the transgression of the law." The sinner must be made to feel that he is a transgressor. Christ dying upon the cross of Calvary is drawing his attention. Why did Christ die? Because it was the only means for man to be saved. . . . He took upon Himself our sins that He might impute His righteousness to all who believe in Him. . . . The goodness and the love of God lead the sinner to repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. The awakened sinner . . . is pointed to the law he has transgressed. It calls to him to repent, yet there is no saving quality in law to pardon the transgression of law, and his case seems hopeless. But the law draws him to Christ. However deep are his sins of transgression, the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse him from all sin. . . . {OHC 141.3}

The law and the gospel go hand in hand. The one is the complement of the other. The law without faith in the gospel of Christ cannot save the transgressor of law. The gospel without the law is inefficient and powerless. The law and the gospel are a perfect whole. The Lord Jesus laid the foundation of the building, and He lays "the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it." Zech. 4:7. He is the author and finisher of our faith, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. The two blended--the gospel of Christ and the law of God--produce the love and faith unfeigned. {OHC 141.4}

The purpose of the Law underlined, the lack of saving power in the law boldened. Ellen agrees with my understanding of what Paul is saying.

TE: I didn't say this.

MM: Then what did you mean when you said - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." How did you know what sin was if you didn’t even know what the Ten Commandments were? That's what Paul would want to know, right? How can you repent without knowledge of sin? Jesus told His disciples how to help others experience conversion and rebirth.

You're a strange one to ask this question, since you say all the last six commandments are known instinctively. When I said I didn't know what the Ten Commandments were, I meant I couldn't tell you what they were. I knew something about them, like Moses had brought them down from a mountain, and threw them, and they broke.

He said, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” Is this what happened when you were converted? Were you taught to observe “all things” Jesus commanded?

Were your raised an Adventist? I'm asking this because you appear to have no conception about what it's like to be a non-SDA Christian.

………………………………..

MM: You are contradicting Jesus Himself.

TE: No I'm not. I quoted Sister White, and said that described my experience.

MM: But your description does not coincide with Sister White’s description. Please read the quoted section above. It plainly shows how your description is different. And it certainly does not coincide with what Jesus said about it.

It did correspond with her description. It doesn't correspond with your understanding of her description, perhaps, but as I read it I say, "Yes, that's just what happened to me."

TE: If you're disagreeing with something I wrote, you need to quote it.

MM: I did. Here is what I quoted - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." This is the fourth time I’ve quoted it.

Which is true. I didn't know what they were. Many, many people are converted that could not list the Ten Commandments. Do you doubt this?

………………………………

Quote:
TE: My experience is by no means unique, MM. Your comments make me curious as if you understand what conversion is really about. It's not about sinful habits. It's about Christ.

MM: Again, in light of the quote you posted, in light of what Jesus and Peter said about it, how can you insist repenting is not necessary before we are converted, before we believe and receive the gospel?

TE: No.

MM: Then what are you saying? What is the truth about repentance and observing “all things” Jesus commanded us to observe as it relates to the gospel and conversion?

When a person is converted, he is brought into harmony with God. The Holy Spirit begins a process of education. I never said anything about not needing to repent. You just made that up.

………………………………..

Quote:
MM: Paul confessed, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." He is saying that he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. Paul did not experience true, genuine conversion and rebirth until after he understood the law of God.
TE: Paul says "when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." You write Paul says he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. These seem like opposites.

MM: Do you two really believe Paul was “alive” in sin before he had a saving knowledge of the law? Paul described it this way, “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.” (1 Tim 5:6) Indeed, Paul was not alive in sin. He was dead in sin and trespasses before he had a saving knowledge of the law.

TE: Paul was convicted of his need for Christ because he realized he was unable to keep the law. That's what he's saying. This conviction of his inability to provide the righteousness the law requires was death to him. That's why he says he died. What EV wrote is right. He "died" as he understood the law of God.

MM: Tom, in response to my post you said, “You write Paul says he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. These seem like opposites.” Do you think Paul was “alive in sin” before he acquired a saving knowledge of the law? What do you think is "opposites”?

Paul wrote that when the law came, he died. You wrote before the law came, he was dead.

MM: Thomas, I believe [a saving knowledge of the law] is inherent in what Paul wrote. One of the many things the law does is it points us to Jesus, who alone can save us.

TV: The purpose of the Law underlined, the lack of saving power in the law boldened. Ellen agrees with my understanding of what Paul is saying.

MM: I agree with it, too. But I also agree with the other quote I posted. I believe they harmonize perfectly. “Sanctification is obtained only in obedience to the will of God. Many who are willfully trampling upon the law of Jehovah claim holiness of heart and sanctification of life. But they have not a saving knowledge of God or of His law.” (FW 29)

I believe people need “a saving knowledge of God [and] His law.” No, the law does not save us. We both agree. A saving knowledge of the law, therefore, can only mean embracing Jesus as our sin-atoning Saviour.

TE: You're a strange one to ask this question, since you say all the last six commandments are known instinctively.

MM: Which is true. Do you agree?

TE: When I said I didn't know what the Ten Commandments were, I meant I couldn't tell you what they were. I knew something about them, like Moses had brought them down from a mountain, and threw them, and they broke.

MM: Again, if you couldn’t tell someone what they meant, how, then, could you know what sin is, how could you repent of sin – a key step, according to Jesus and Peter, in the process of conversion?


TE: Were your raised an Adventist? I'm asking this because you appear to have no conception about what it's like to be a non-SDA Christian.

MM: I started living with an Adventist family at the age of 15 after I was expelled from Boystown. I became a Christian at age 22. How does this answer my question, though? Is the SDA church the only one that follows the method Jesus prescribed for leading people through the process of conversion? Were you not taught to observe everything Jesus commanded us to observe?


TE: It did correspond with her description. It doesn't correspond with your understanding of her description, perhaps, but as I read it I say, "Yes, that's just what happened to me."

MM: It certainly does not correspond with the brief description you provided here. Is there more you’re not telling us? Did you repent of your sins? Did you understanding the meaning of the Ten Commandments? Were you taught to observe everything Jesus commanded us to observe? If not, how, then can you insist that the description Sister White provided above describes your conversion experience?


TE: Which is true. I didn't know what they were. Many, many people are converted that could not list the Ten Commandments. Do you doubt this?

MM: People who claim to be converted and yet have zero saving knowledge of the law did not experience true, genuine conversion. They did not experience it in God’s appointed way. Rebirth is not as common as you make out. It is rare. Most people are not taught to observe everything Jesus commanded, thus, most people do not complete the process of conversion. But it’s never too late to finish it. Sister White encouraged many, so many, people to complete the process of conversion, to experience a true, genuine, and thorough conversion.

6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

CSW 91
Their life is not in accordance with their profession; their influence is an offense to God. They need a thorough conversion. Their hearts are so filled up with rubbish that there is no room for ennobling, elevated truth. The soul temple needs to be refined, purified, cleansed; for Satan rather than God is abiding in the heart. {CSW 91.1}

2T 638
Brother E needs a thorough conversion. It is not enough for men to profess the truth. They may acknowledge the whole truth, and yet know nothing--have no experimental knowledge in their daily life--of the sanctifying influence of the truth upon the heart and life, or of the power of true godliness. {2T 638.2}


TE: When a person is converted, he is brought into harmony with God. The Holy Spirit begins a process of education. I never said anything about not needing to repent. You just made that up.

MM: You are being stingy with information. It’s been like pulling teeth. Your testimony is vague. Say more, please. Did you repent of your sins before or after you claim to have experienced biblical conversion?


TE: Paul wrote that when the law came, he died. You wrote before the law came, he was dead.

MM: You didn’t answer my question. Was Paul “alive in sin” before he experienced true, genuine conversion?

……………………………….

What is the difference between spurious conversions and true, genuine conversions? What is “the true interpretation of genuine conversion”? (UL 221)

MM: Then what did you mean when you said - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." How did you know what sin was if you didn’t even know what the Ten Commandments were? That's what Paul would want to know, right? How can you repent without knowledge of sin? Jesus told His disciples how to help others experience conversion and rebirth.

TE: You're a strange one to ask this question, since you say all the last six commandments are known instinctively.

MM: Which is true. Do you agree?

Not like you do. I agree that people have a basic notion of what's right and wrong, but I don't see a distinction between the first four commandments being mental, and for which we aren't responsible (without further instruction), and the last six being moral, for which we are (without further instruction).

Anyway, I think you missed my point, so I'll try to be more clear. My point is that given that the six commandments are instinctive, as you assert, then why would the fact that I can't tell you what they are mean that I couldn't be convicted of sin? By your own way of looking at things, everyone, regardless of whether they can enumerate the Ten Commandments, is convicted of sin, right?

TE: When I said I didn't know what the Ten Commandments were, I meant I couldn't tell you what they were. I knew something about them, like Moses had brought them down from a mountain, and threw them, and they broke.

MM: Again, if you couldn’t tell someone what they meant

MM, how can you get what I said wrong, when you just quoted what I said right before writing a response? Don't you look at what you're responding to? I said, "I couldn't tell you what they were."

MM:, how, then, could you know what sin is, how could you repent of sin – a key step, according to Jesus and Peter, in the process of conversion?

According to you, everyone can do this for the last six commandments, so why should I be any different?

Quote:
He said, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” Is this what happened when you were converted? Were you taught to observe “all things” Jesus commanded?

TE: Were your raised an Adventist? I'm asking this because you appear to have no conception about what it's like to be a non-SDA Christian.

MM: I started living with an Adventist family at the age of 15 after I was expelled from Boystown. I became a Christian at age 22. How does this answer my question, though?

I brought this up because you seem to equate conversion with tennants of SDAism. But most converted people know nothing about our beliefs. They drink coffee, don't observe Sabbath, drink alcohol, don't pay tithe, eat pork, maybe weren't baptized by imersion, and many other things. Yet they know Jesus Christ, and are converted. Most Christians fall in this category.

Is the SDA church the only one that follows the method Jesus prescribed for leading people through the process of conversion? Were you not taught to observe everything Jesus commanded us to observe?

Even among SDA's, the all things that Jesus commanded us to observe is not agreed upon. For example, God gave us a most precious message, the purpose of which was to prepare the way of His Coming. To me, that should be included, but you see no need to study these messages, thinking Step to Christ is all you need. That doesn't prove you're not converted.

Quote:
MM: How can you quote this passage to explain what happened when you were converted and then insist - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." Again, here is what she says happens when someone is converted:

Does she say anything her description about having to know what the Ten Commandments are? No, she doesn't. She says we respond to the drawing love of God as revealed by Christ crucified. That's what I did.

1. “If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.” Again, this is not how you described your conversion. You make it clear you did not repent.

You're making this up. I already pointed this out to you. I said nothing of the sort.

You knew nothing of the law so you could not repent.

2. “The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” Neither does this describe your conversion. You knew nothing of the law, therefore, you knew nothing of obedience or the will of Christ.

3. “Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, ‘I delight to do Thy will, O my God.’ Ps. 40:8.” Again, this does not describe your conversion. You could not say with Christ, “I delight to do Thy will, O my God”, because you knew nothing of God’s will or His law.

I don't know how to respond, other than to say that you are jumping to a whole bunch of unwarranted conclusions. I said I could not tell you what the Ten Commandments are. I would guess this applies to over 90% of the people who are converted. I know someone who was converted at the age of 4 or 5, or perhaps a little older, but still quite young. He remembers the appeal to give his heart to the Lord, and responded. He remembers being born again. I'm sure he could not have told you what the Ten Commandments were.

MM: Again, Tom, in light of the quote you posted, I do not see how you can say it describes what happened when you were converted. Jesus taught, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel.” And Peter proclaimed, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.” And yet you would have us believe you experienced conversion without repenting of your sins. You are contradicting Jesus Himself.

I never said anything about not repenting. You just made this up. No matter how often you repeat it, it will still be just as false that I said anything even remotely suggesting this.

TE: It did correspond with her description. It doesn't correspond with your understanding of her description, perhaps, but as I read it I say, "Yes, that's just what happened to me."

MM: It certainly does not correspond with the brief description you provided here. Is there more you’re not telling us? Did you repent of your sins? Did you understanding the meaning of the Ten Commandments? Were you taught to observe everything Jesus commanded us to observe? If not, how, then can you insist that the description Sister White provided above describes your conversion experience?

You keep asking and saying the same things over and over again. Do you edit your posts at all? The third sentence says, "Did you understanding the meaning of the Ten Commandments?" That's not even a proper question. This is way longer than it needs to be. Anyway, I've already responded to all these questions several times now, even in this very post.

Quote:
TE: If you're disagreeing with something I wrote, you need to quote it.

MM: I did. Here is what I quoted - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." This is the fourth time I’ve quoted it.

As I pointed out, I would venture that over 90% of Christians, when they were converted, could not tell you what the Ten Commandments were. I would venture that even after being converted, many could not tell you. I would even venture that a fair percentage of converted SDA's could not list the Ten Commandments for you.

TE: Which is true. I didn't know what they were. Many, many people are converted that could not list the Ten Commandments. Do you doubt this?

MM: People who claim to be converted and yet have zero saving knowledge of the law did not experience true, genuine conversion. They did not experience it in God’s appointed way. Rebirth is not as common as you make out.

You're making this up too. I've never made any statement stating anything regarding how common rebirth is.

It is rare. Most people are not taught to observe everything Jesus commanded, thus, most people do not complete the process of conversion. But it’s never too late to finish it. Sister White encouraged many, so many, people to complete the process of conversion, to experience a true, genuine, and thorough conversion.

6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

CSW 91
Their life is not in accordance with their profession; their influence is an offense to God. They need a thorough conversion. Their hearts are so filled up with rubbish that there is no room for ennobling, elevated truth. The soul temple needs to be refined, purified, cleansed; for Satan rather than God is abiding in the heart. {CSW 91.1}

2T 638
Brother E needs a thorough conversion. It is not enough for men to profess the truth. They may acknowledge the whole truth, and yet know nothing--have no experimental knowledge in their daily life--of the sanctifying influence of the truth upon the heart and life, or of the power of true godliness. {2T 638.2}

Quote:
MM: Again, in light of the quote you posted, in light of what Jesus and Peter said about it, how can you insist repenting is not necessary before we are converted, before we believe and receive the gospel?

TE: No.

MM: Then what are you saying? What is the truth about repentance and observing “all things” Jesus commanded us to observe as it relates to the gospel and conversion?

TE: When a person is converted, he is brought into harmony with God. The Holy Spirit begins a process of education. I never said anything about not needing to repent. You just made that up.

MM: You are being stingy with information. It’s been like pulling teeth. Your testimony is vague. Say more, please. Did you repent of your sins before or after you claim to have experienced biblical conversion?

How many times to I have to answer the same question? Repenting of sin is a part of EGW's description that I quoted. It happens when the love of good is revealed. I quoted Romans 2:4 for you (the goodness of God leads us to repentance)

Quote:
MM: Tom, in response to my post you said, “You write Paul says he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. These seem like opposites.” Do you think Paul was “alive in sin” before he acquired a saving knowledge of the law? What do you think is "opposites”?

TE: Paul wrote that when the law came, he died. You wrote before the law came, he was dead.

MM: You didn’t answer my question. Was Paul “alive in sin” before he experienced true, genuine conversion?

Was Paul "alive in sin."? Why should I have to answer such a question? Why would you insist that such a question be answered?

You ask many questions of the "have you stopped beating your wife" variety. That is, the question itself has implicit assumptions, for example, that you are beating your wife to start with. There's no way to answer this question "yes" or "no" without tacitly acknowledging the implicit assumption. Similarly for me to answer the question "was Paul alive in sin" would be to acknoweldge that Paul's being alive in sin had something to do with the discussion, which is doesn't.

Paul said that when the law came, he died. His point was that he became aware of his condition as a sinner, and his need for Christ. He wasn't saying anything about being alive or dead in sin when he made the statement that "then the law came, and I died."

……………………………….

What is the difference between spurious conversions and true, genuine conversions? What is “the true interpretation of genuine conversion”? (UL 221)

A genuine conversion is one where the converted person has genuinely given his heart to Jesus Christ, and the desire of whose life is to be in harmony with God.

Quote:
What the majority of professed Christians need, is genuine conversion. {OHC 218.4}

The reason there are so many spurious conversions in these days is that there is so low an appreciation of the law of God. {FW 96.3}

Neither words nor profession, but fruits--the forsaking of sins, and obedience to the commandments of God--show the reality of genuine repentance and true conversion. {5BC 1077.5}

No conversion is genuine which does not change both the character and the conduct of those who accept the truth. The truth works by love, and purifieth the soul. {SD 288.3}

These quotes point out the fruit of a converted person. The means for conversion is faith.

Wonders if Mike will tell us that being able to recite the ten commandments is a fundamental demand of a born again christian, alternatively a clear fruit of a born again christian?

TV: Wonders if Mike will tell us that being able to recite the ten commandments is a fundamental demand of a born again christian, alternatively a clear fruit of a born again christian?

MM: Thomas, Jesus Himself addressed a question very similar to yours. I agree with His answer. Knowing and showing, willing and doing, are both important.

Matthew
19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew
22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark
10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Luke
18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.
18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

John
14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

MM: Thomas, Jesus Himself addressed a question very similar to yours. I agree with His answer. Knowing and showing, willing and doing, are both important.

I'm not understanding your comment. Are you saying that being able to list the Ten Commandments is a requirement to enter into heaven?

TE: Not like you do. I agree that people have a basic notion of what's right and wrong, but I don't see a distinction between the first four commandments being mental, and for which we aren't responsible (without further instruction), and the last six being moral, for which we are (without further instruction). Anyway, I think you missed my point, so I'll try to be more clear. My point is that given that the six commandments are instinctive, as you assert, then why would the fact that I can't tell you what they are mean that I couldn't be convicted of sin? By your own way of looking at things, everyone, regardless of whether they can enumerate the Ten Commandments, is convicted of sin, right?

MM: Yes, I believe the principles inherent within the last six commandments are known instinctively from birth. That’s how Jesus created us. “As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart.” (RC 106) This, of course, does not apply to the first four commandments.

The difference between knowing what is morally right and wrong before and after we embark upon the process of conversion is that the Holy Spirit reveals our sinful habits in light of the cross. Such a revelation makes all the difference in the world. Do you agree? Please answer this question. Thank you.


TE: MM, how can you get what I said wrong, when you just quoted what I said right before writing a response? Don't you look at what you're responding to? I said, "I couldn't tell you what they were."

MM: If you couldn’t tell what they “were” how, then, could you tell what they “mean”?


TE: According to you, everyone can do this for the last six commandments, so why should I be any different?

MM: So, do you agree people instinctively know what is morally right and wrong, and that this natural knowledge corresponds to the last six commandments? And, does such knowledge enable people to instinctively relate their sinful habits to the 10Cs, without knowing what they were, so that they naturally understand sin is the transgression of the law?


TE: I brought this up because you seem to equate conversion with tennants of SDAism. But most converted people know nothing about our beliefs. They drink coffee, don't observe Sabbath, drink alcohol, don't pay tithe, eat pork, maybe weren't baptized by imersion, and many other things. Yet they know Jesus Christ, and are converted. Most Christians fall in this category.

MM: Are you assuming everyone who claims to be a converted Christian is a converted Christian? How can you be sure? The SOP makes it clear that conversion is rare. And yet you seem to think it is quite common. Nevertheless, there are people who are converted Christians in the eyes of God, and yet they do not understand “all things” Jesus commanded us to obey and observe. God winks at such ignorance, but He also holds the SDA church responsible for their ignorance. No one will be translated alive while sinning ignorantly (because they were not told how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded). Why do you suppose that is?


TE: Even among SDA's, the all things that Jesus commanded us to observe is not agreed upon. For example, God gave us a most precious message, the purpose of which was to prepare the way of His Coming. To me, that should be included, but you see no need to study these messages, thinking Step to Christ is all you need. That doesn't prove you're not converted.

MM: Are you arguing that not even the Remnant Church is doing it right? That she is not teaching people how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded? That not even SC teaches the truth about justification and righteousness by faith?


TE: Does she say anything her description about having to know what the Ten Commandments are? No, she doesn't. She says we respond to the drawing love of God as revealed by Christ crucified. That's what I did.

MM: Yes, she does teach that a saving knowledge of the law and love of God is indispensable. You claim you did not even know what the 10Cs were.


TE: You're making this up. I already pointed this out to you. I said nothing of the sort.

MM: I reread your posted testimony and you never once said you repented of your sins or sinful habits. Did you? If so, how did you know what to repent of?


TE: I don't know how to respond, other than to say that you are jumping to a whole bunch of unwarranted conclusions. I said I could not tell you what the Ten Commandments are. I would guess this applies to over 90% of the people who are converted. I know someone who was converted at the age of 4 or 5, or perhaps a little older, but still quite young. He remembers the appeal to give his heart to the Lord, and responded. He remembers being born again. I'm sure he could not have told you what the Ten Commandments were.

MM: Again, you did not experience conversion in God’s appointed way. Conversions means living in harmony with the law and love of God. You did not even know what the 10cs were, so your “thoughts and desires” were not “brought into obedience to the will of Christ” at the moment you claim you were converted. Nor could you declare, as did Jesus, “I delight to do Thy will, O my God” simply because you had no idea what God’s will is, at least not at that point, because you were not taught how to be like Jesus. The day you claim you were converted is the day you embarked upon the “patient, protracted process” conversion. It is not the day you completed the process of conversion.


TE: I never said anything about not repenting. You just made this up. No matter how often you repeat it, it will still be just as false that I said anything even remotely suggesting this.

MM: Please explain how you repented. Thank you.


TE: You keep asking and saying the same things over and over again. Do you edit your posts at all? The third sentence says, "Did you understanding the meaning of the Ten Commandments?" That's not even a proper question. This is way longer than it needs to be. Anyway, I've already responded to all these questions several times now, even in this very post.

MM: You have yet to answer my questions. I repost them hoping you will answer them.


TE: As I pointed out, I would venture that over 90% of Christians, when they were converted, could not tell you what the Ten Commandments were. I would venture that even after being converted, many could not tell you. I would even venture that a fair percentage of converted SDA's could not list the Ten Commandments for you.

MM: Tom, do you think this is why Sister White was shown that “many, so many,” are not truly, genuinely converted?


TE: You're making this up too. I've never made any statement stating anything regarding how common rebirth is.

MM: According to your own testimony, people experience true, genuine conversion, in accordance with Matthew 28:19 and 20, all the time. Since, according to you, conversion is so easy, so simple, why wouldn’t it be common? But if what you assert is right and true, why did Sister White say conversion is rare? Why did she write that “so many” people have not experienced true, genuine conversion?


TE: How many times to I have to answer the same question? Repenting of sin is a part of EGW's description that I quoted. It happens when the love of good is revealed. I quoted Romans 2:4 for you (the goodness of God leads us to repentance)

MM: You are being vague. You keep insisting you have answered my questions, but there is no record of it.


TE: Was Paul "alive in sin."? Why should I have to answer such a question? Why would you insist that such a question be answered?

MM: Because you have been arguing against it. Do you agree with me that Paul was dead in sin before he acquired a saving knowledge of the law and love of God? Yes or no, please. I realize you don’t think it is relevant. But please humor me. Thank you.


TE: A genuine conversion is one where the converted person has genuinely given his heart to Jesus Christ, and the desire of whose life is to be in harmony with God.

MM: Are you saying genuinely converted people are born again largely ignorant of the law and love of God, but that they have a “desire” to learn what it means to be like Jesus, to live like Him?


TE: These quotes point out the fruit of a converted person. The means for conversion is faith.

MM: Actually, Tom, they clearly teach that truly, genuinely converted people, namely, people who have experienced and completed the “patient, protracted process” of conversion in God’s appointed way, understand and obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. Which, of course, is the fruit of faith. Your testimony does not coincide with the insights taught by these quotes.