Okay, I didn't think you would agree with my observations. But one thing is certain, we agree on the historical view point. And as I have said before, that's the safest interpretation since we have plenty of inspired support validating it.

I'm not sure another round or volley postulating about the seals anad trumpets will generate any better results. You are firmly entrenched in the historical application, and I am willing to allow for the possibility that the seals and trumpets have a future application. I realize I haven't provided you sufficient logic or reason to loosen your stance, and to be honest, it was never my intention to persuade you or anyone else of anything.

I understand how hard it is to look at the seals and trumpets from a future point of view when a person has worked so hard to establish the historical point of view, a view that we all admit is not the easiest one to verfiy. Which is one of the reasons why I believe a future view is the primary focus of the seals and trumpets.

When one of the cardinal rules of interpreting the Bible is to take a passage as it reads, unless it is obvious a symbolic meaning is intended, encounters complications when attempting to prove the historical view of the first four trumpets. Personally, I cannot justify suggesting that the primary interpretation is symbolic when reading it literally does not jeopardize the integrity of Adventist eschatology, especially when viewed from the future stance I've been suggestsing.

This is a huge obstacle that I believe we must overcome and justify to the rest of the world. There is nothing absurd about the future view I've been advocating, nothing aberrant when compared to Adventist theology. The future view I've been trying to share is much easier for people to accept than trying to convince them that the nature terminology employed in Rev 8 actually symbolizes military conquests. I'm not saying it's impossible or unbiblical. Remember, I agree with all the logic myself. I just pointing out that it's easier the other way. Which is another reason why I believe the future literal view is most likely the primary focus.

At any rate, I did the best I could to explain why I believe the way I do. In the final analysis I think it comes down to what a person is willing to accept as a valid interpretation of this or that part of the Revelation account of human history. What makes sense to me, did not make sense to you. Oh well. It's a free country. Throughout this thread I have given what I consider significant justification for entertaining a future view of the seals and trumpets. It did not hold water with you, and that's okay. I do not believe the Bible or Ellen White condemns seeking for ways to apply the trumpets to future developments, in fact there are a few quotes where she even seems to do it herself, even though her primary focus was the historical view.

A future view of the seals and trumpets is virgin territory, we don't have much from the pioneers. I believe it is the final frontier for Adventism. I believe eventually people will begin to see clearly how the future is portrayed in the seals and trumpets. And if I'm wrong? Oh well, I'm sure I won't be the only person who got part of the story wrong and is admitted to the kingdom of God any way.

Thank you for the dialogue. If I've missed a detail you'd like more comments on, please let me know. I may jump in from time to time if this threads continues.

With Greg jumping into this topic I am curious what his thoughts are on this, after he has had a chance to read this thread, of course, and it isn't exactly a short thread.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Mike,

Before you bow out for now, please try to grapple a little more with the texts themselves.

It's easy to say, "Maybe this has a future application." It's a bit more difficult to substantiate how that can be done while still doing justice to the text.

Specifically, please explain Rev. 5:13 and 8:3-5 in the light of any possible futuristic scenario you can.

When do the seals begin? Before or after Rev. 5:13? If before, when? What bearing would this have on the asension and Holy Place scene of Rev. 4-5.

Is 8:3-4 a scene from the Holy Place? Does it occur before the coals are put into the censer on the Day of Atonement? What bearing does this have on the timing of the trumpets?

Dear Bob,Mike, Daryl, and Mark:
I think you did very well on this study. It has covered a large amount of material that I personally am interested in. I have many questions to ask and you guys seem like you are willing to wade in an bring the Bible and the SOP to bear on these questions.

As I read your thoughts I tried to jot a few ideas down to see if I could add any light to the discussion. After a few brief comments I would like to ask some questions of my own. The general thoughts that I saw, among all the various ideas shared, were the following:
1. the duality of prophecy. I feel that there are dual applications but I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to know which are dual and which are not.
2. the trumpets - literal or symbolic. I vote for symbolic. I think almost everything in Revelation is symbolically based and the symbolic position is the first one that has to be explored. That is one of my questions - why are the concepts in the 6th seal apparently more literal than symbolic? And why are the first 4 plagues stated as literal in GC and the 5th and 6th more symbolic?
3. the saints executing judgment. In the OT when judgment was pronounced on somebody all the congregation was to stone them. They not only decided but they were to actually, so it appears, required to throw a stone signifying that had they the power they would have executed the judgment. How we are to throw the stones in the executive judgment I suspect we will find out in heaven.
4. historicism. I think the historicist position is the only safe place to be. Any deviation from that position puts us in the same territory as Eve was when she "began" the dialogue with satan. We all think we can handle certain philosophies but for me personally I don't want to get caught up in the almost imperceptible shift. Preterism and futurism are satans ground.
5. EGW's view of the trumpets. I think, when I have finished my own personal study of the trumpets, I will find that she speaks about them clearly. I think she has spoken of them in GC especially in the context of the roman catholic church. I just can't see them yet because my Bible study has not been sufficiently thorough to allow me to recognize the pattern. My own thinking is still too stong. When I have submitted my thoughts to the cleansing process of the Word of God, and my thoughts are captive to Christ's thoughts (II Cor 10:5) then I will be able to see.
I believe that a true Biblical understanding of the trumpets are embedded in GC especially in the sections regarding the rcc. I believe this because of the style of Daniel. Each prophetic chapter in Daniel goes over the same territory but with different emphases. I believe that Revelation does the same thing but at a point farther down in time. For me, GC is the commentary on Revelation and Daniel. I believe she covers the same material, in the same order as Daniel and Revelation. I believe that we can see her explanation of the thunders, and the movements at 1844. I believe that the trumpets and seals are just as clearly spoken of in GC but we are not studied enough to see properly, or at least I am not studied enough to see properly.

It is my goal to interact with minds like yours to develop and refine my thinking until I can see what God has left for us.

An interesting sidelight was my personal study on the plagues. I was studying the word ten. I went to the "ten" plagues of Egypt fully expecting the Bible and the SOP to label them the ten plagues. But neither the Bible or the SOP refer to them as ten plagues. The Bible and the SOP refer to the plagues as signs and wonders, with no specific number of plagues. What that forced my mind to do is to adjust to the idea that there may have been more than ten plagues. There certainly were more than ten wonders. So as I let go of the word ten, in that context, whole sets of new questions came up for me. As a result of these questions I could see that the Egyptian signs and wonders were very much like the "seven" "last" plagues. Does seven mean 7 or does it mean a complete and perfect number of them? I was finally able to get at least a little grasp of the drying up of the euphrates. It is in fact very similar to the drying up of the Red Sea. So then the question was did the signs and wonders of Egypt start at the burning bush, the 3 signs for Moses at Mt Sinai, the displaying of the 3 signs to the elders, did the Red Sea experience end the signs and wonders or did the whole wilderness wandering fit in during the signs and wonders. As I have been studying the plagues the quote in GC 636 about the angry multitudes being suddenly arrested took on a whole new meaning for me. I could see the 6th plague in it because I has studied enough to "see". I hope and pray that as I interact with you we will recreate the Sabbath meetings of the early pioneers as we dig deep into the Word?

A few of my questions have already been asked in my long prologue. But here are a few of them:
1. Could the censer scene in Rev 8 be a an ending and then the trumpets explain how we arrived at the ending? The throwing down of the censer seems to indicate a close of probation. Could the trumpets indicate how we arrived at this close of probation?
2. Could the close of probation referred to in Revelation 8:5 indicate the ending of the daily component of the sanctuary?
3. What evidence in the first trumpet attaches it to any thing? Where and when did the first trumpet start? I think the starting point would give us the framework to locate the rest of the trumpets.
I think that is enough for now.
Thank you for letting me participate in this study.

Greg,

I believe your first point/question is correct, except that I see the voices, thunderings, lightnings and earthquake of Rev. 8:5 and 11:19 as being identical. Therefore the scenes following the 7th trumpet extend a little past the close of probation.

Regarding #2, I think the putting of coals in the censer represents the ending of the daily, rather than the casting down of it. Thus far there is at least 157 years between the two.

Regarding #3, my paper on the trumpets deals with that. Since the symbolism of the first 4 trumpets is taken from OT passages that deal with the downfall of Babylon or Israel or Judah, then the 1st trumpet would have to begin after Israel and Babylon had become synonymous. This didn't begin to happen until Constantine, and wasn't finished until the reign of Theodosius. The year he died is when Alaric began his invasion.

I don't have a clue why the 6th seal would be literal while the 1dt 5 are symbolic. Same response on the plagues.

On the 10 plagues, Revelation's symbols are largely taken from Daniel's time, Moses's/Joshua's time, and Elijah's time. Thus Rev. 12's symbolism is taken entirely from the Exodus.

Beginning with plague #4, none fell on Goshen. So the last 7 then and now won't fall on God's people.

Before you have the 7 last, you have the 3 woes. May be weak, but that makes 10.

Bob:
Can't spend much time on the subject at this moment but I would like to ask some more questions later tonight. Thank you for being willing to interact. I got copies of your trumpet study and the 7 kings of Rev 17. When I finish with them I will share my thoughts on them and add a few of my own if possible. Did you get a chance to check out the Daniel dates?
I would appreciate any help I can get.
Greg

Bob:
Thank you for the feedback. We had a good discussion going on Club Adventist about the trumpets. One of the people stated that that censer event was a completed event and symbolized the transfer from the hp to the mhp. She thought that there was a probationary ending symbolized by the "completion" of the censer activity in the hp. I was wondering if you have ever thought of that?

I have your study on the trumpets and I have not read it yet so I will save my questions re. the starting point until I have read your materials and at least give you a chance to say your piece before the questions come.

In reference to the ten plagues versus the seven plagues. In my mind the concept of ten as used in the Bible is a symbol of "the world", for me the concept of seven is a symbol of "completeness". I am not sure that there were 10 plagues or that there will be 7 last plagues. Signs and wonders yes, how many, I suspect more than we have understood there to be, but certainly the seven that we have identified in the Bible and the SOP.

Will talk to you later.

Greg,

I'm not sure what you mean by Daniel dates?

The placing of fire in the censer I see as beginning the MHP ministry. The casting down of the censer I see as the close of probation. EW uses the casting down in that way.

Whether there were ten or more than 10 plagues on Egypt, we still have the 7 last ones of the 10 recorded being not on God's people.

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]

Bob:
I see you found the Daniel dates thread. Thanks for the input. I always feel insecure about dates, I feel like I can just about hang my hat on them and then along comes another interpretation and oops.
I just finished reading your trumpets study. Perhaps we should start a trumpets thread. My questions and comments might fit the trumpets thread better. I have little to say on the dual application concept. What do you think?

Sounds good to me. I just started one.