Mark,

Could you please share a Davidic prophecy that unequivocally found a fulfillment in the "early rain" rather than the entire Christian era?

Mike,

Your last post was excellent because it pinpointed specific points. I think that is very helpful.

Regarding Rev. 5:13, do you have any biblical examples where "every creature" can refer to a few rather than most or all?

Even during the plagues most are blaspheming God rather than praising Him, so if 5:13 takes place this side of eternity, "every creature" can't mean "every." It could only mean a small minority.

Regarding 8:3-5, let's set aside our opinions on the trumpets and just look at the passages. Lev. 16 has the high priest putting coals of fire in the censer on the way into the MHP, not on the way out. Lev. 16 doesn't have the high priest burning incense on the golden altar at all. Rev. 8:3-5 doesn't have the Angel using the censer at all until vs. 5, even though it was part of the beginning of the Yom Kippur services.

If we just use the Bible and keep our ideas out of it, how can Rev. 8:3-4 refer to a MHP ministry? Must we assume that John wrote it down wrong, that the Angel was really burning incense in the censer, not on the altar? Isn't it much more logical to have the MHP ministry come in in vs. 5 rather than vs. 3?

I agree about our preconceived ideas getting in the way in our search for truth. If I had allowed my preconceived ideas to get in my way, I would have rejected the Sabbath truth and wouldn't even have become a SDA.

We should be reading the Word with an open mind seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit who's function is to guide us into all truth. Of course, I did try to prove them wrong about the Sabbath through the Word, however, my mind was open enough that the Holy Spirit was able to reveal to me the truth about the Sabbath as well as about other things.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Bob, everybody John saw in vision was thankful Jesus is worthy to open the seals, that is, there wasn't one being in that crowd that wasn't thoroughly thankful. To suggest that the word "every" in Rev 5;13 must absolutely mean everyone ever born or created since the beginning of time is limiting the scope of scripture.

Also, the fact that they were thankful Jesus is worthy to open the seals BEFORE He began to open them, clearly indicates that this praise festival happens before they are opened.

Does Leviticus cover every detail there is to know about the earthly sanctuary and its services? Obviously it doesn't. Not even the entire Bible covers every detail. Which is why we must often reference other Jewish writings to get the clearest understanding. But what the Bible does say about it is sufficient enough for us to understand the vital truths concerning it.

Just as other daily services were performed on the day of atonement, so it is obvious from the account in the Revelation that one of the daily functions included burning incense in the HP. The high priest was all over the place on the day of atonement. He didn't enter the MHP once and stay in there all day. Nevertheless, everything he accomplished on that day was associated with the MHP, even though his duties involved the outer court and the HP as well.

Mike,

Please re-read Rev. 5:13.

quote:

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And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

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Notice that it doesn''t say anything about praising the Lamb since He is worthy.

While it amy not mean everyone that has ever been created or born, it does mean everyone that is alive on earth at the time the verse takes place.

Notice that I just avoided interpretations and dealt with just what the verse says.

While Lev. 16 may not say everything that happed on Yom Kippur, all we have to go by is what it does say.

Ellen White is explicit that the work in the HP ceased when the high priest was engaged in the yearly work.

Thus we really have no grounds for saying that the high priest during the yearly service on Yom Kippur still offered incense on the golden altar, or that he put coals from off the altar in the censer at the end of the services as well as at the beginning.

Bob, thank you for those insights. I guess I wasn't reading verse 13 as an isolated text, rather I am reading it in the context of the entire passage. If chapter 5 isn't exclusively dealing with the fact Jesus is worthy to open the seals - then what is it talking about instead?

Historically speaking Jesus began opening the seals during the apostolic church, thus whatever is meant by what John was shown in verse 13 probably has something to with how created beings everywhere felt about Jesus' qualifications to open the seals. Which will continue to be true throughout eternity. That is, we will always be thankful for the reasons why Jesus was worthy to open the seals.

Besides what does the phrase "under the earth" and "in the sea" mean anyhow? Here's where it appears in the KJV:

Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I can understand beings that live in heaven and on earth, but what kind of beings live "under the earth" and "in the sea"? Is Paul and John talking about the animals that live under the earth and in the sea? Do they also praise God? I know that Bible often personifies the things of nature and depicts them praising God, which includes everything from plants to animals.

If so, then what does this say about Rev 5:13? In Rev 5:3 was John disappointed that not even the animals "under the earth" were qualified to open the seals?

Mike,

Excellent question. I've wondered abou the "under the earth" part too.

quote:

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"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13.

The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love. (GC 678)

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It seems pretty apparent that Rev. 5:13 is talking about every last creature in creation.

But what about the opening of the seals? No man? The text literally says "non one," which sometimes means just "no one." In this passage it may involve the angels as well. I favor the idea that the living and the dead are under consideration as well, thus no one under the earth was worthy either.

Simply put, nothing anywhere could open the seals, not even the Lamb, at that point. The Lamb had to overcome, be slain, before He was worthy. Thus the passage itself indicates that the scenes in heaven in Rev. 5 concern something that occurred around Christ's death.

I am more inclined to believe that the phrase "under the earth" refers to dead people in the grave. I truly doubt John actually thought that if no one else was worthy to open the seals then at least a plant, animal or even an atom might be found worthy. I'm quite sure John thought that maybe a deceased worthy somebody could be resurrected to open the seals.

As it turns out opening the seals was nothing more than the unfolding of history. What's the big deal? Nothing major was revealed that Jesus hadn't already predicted in Matthew 24. So why all the fuss? What am I missing here? Obviously there is something more important than Jesus opening the seals and revealing it's contents. But what?

By the way, Sister White quoted Rev 5:13 in another context other than at the end of time. Note this passage:

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, February 4, 1890, paragraph 5
"The disciple John declares from the Isle of Patmos, "I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the beasts, and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever." He who is worthy of all this honor is our Saviour, the One who only can save us from our sins."

If you read the context of this quote she is talking about Jesus saving us from our present life of sin.

Mike,

The words of the praise of Rev. 5:13 might be said at any time, but the verse is specifically pointing to a time when "every creature" will be praising God.

It really isn't for us to question what is the big deal in Jesus repeating material from Mat. 24. Our job is to accept what He says.

But we do have an answer to your question. The seals primarily depict the apostasy of the church and the subsequent slaughter of God's people.

We could ask regarding a number of places in Scripture, why is this repeated here when it already is written there?

Okay, it looks as though we've reached another empasse regarding the timing and context of Rev 5:13. I believe it describes "every creature" or being John saw in vision praising God because Jesus is worthy and about to open the seals. Whereas you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, it describes everyone everywhere praising God sometime after the millennium.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that the duplication repeated in the seals was unnecessary or questionable. But rather I was trying to dig deeper by asking - What is so relevant about the seals that only Jesus was worthy to open them? That is, what more can we learn about the seals by exploring this question? Because in my mind they don't reveal anything new that Jesus hadn't already revealed in Matthew 24.

Therefore I am assuming there is something more about them that we're missing. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to set you up or to trick you into accepting a future view of the seals. It's just that I'm trying to understand why such a fuss was made about opening the seals. If they had remained closed, like the 7 thunders, would we have been the worse off?

And I'm not trying to second guess God, or question the wisdom of repeating the information already clearly revealed in Matthew 24. I'm just wondering if there's anything we can learn by trying discern why opening the seals was so important, since not opening them might not have made any difference anyhow - in light of the fact that most of the information had already been recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke. And the same would hold true for both the historical and a future view.

Do you see what I'm getting at?