You couldn't get drunk by drinking the beer of his day?

Here's something from Luther:



From correspondence between Luther and his wife, it is apparent that Luther had a wine cellar.

You could get drunk on it, if you keept on drinking a lot. As I heard it, 3 or 4 cans of todays sizes wouldnt get you intoxicated on that brew... But maybe 3 or four 4 gallons would...

Interesting. Well, there's the wine also. You could probably get drunk on that. Luther mentions the importance of self-control, so that implies you could get drunk.

When looking for the history of this at wikipedia, I saw a reference to Proverbs 31:6-7. If the SS-study ever gets that far before new topic in April, that will promise to be one interesting passage to debate.

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And another point I was trying to make earlier is also quoted here: here:

"In places and eras with poor public sanitation, such as Medieval Europe, consumption of alcoholic drinks (particularly weak or "small" beer) was one method of avoiding water-borne diseases such as cholera. "

For those who don't have Proverbs 31:6, 7 memorized:

TE: No. I'm saying what I said. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light. This is Biblical.

MM: Even if they are ignorant of the truths that can set them free from their sinful habits?

TE: “That the Holy Spirit will occupy a divided throne?” The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it. (remember, he accepted Christ as His personal Savior.)

MM: Are you saying Jesus will occupy the throne of their heart before it is cleansed of sinful habits?

TE: “No one can complete the process of converting from not knowing everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded before they learn how to obey everything He commanded. Do you agree?” I believe a person is converted, as I've said very many times now, when (s)he accepts Christ.

MM: Okay, so you believe they accept Jesus irrespective of the truths that can set them free of their sinful habits.

TE: Conversion does not have to do with being translated alive. You're the only one I've ever met that has this idea. Conversion has to do with being right with God, being justified, being saved.

MM: But you believe “being right with God” has nothing to do with obeying everything Jesus commanded.

TE: The publican was not justified? nor converted? MM, justification by faith and pardon are one and the same. When the publican asked for pardon, he received it, as did David, which Paul points out in Romans 4. Do you believe he wasn't forgiven?

MM: Again, the publican embarked upon the process of conversion, he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was saved in the sense he was living up to the light he believed is right and true. So was David.

TE: The people at Pentecost weren't aware of everything Jesus taught. How could they have been? There were many Gentiles there. Acts demonstrates that the "many things" had yet to be determined. The were converted as a result of believing Peter's preaching, which is recorded in Acts. It was the Gospel of Christ crucified that led to their being converted.

MM: Here is what Sister White wrote about it: “During His life on this earth He had sown the seed of truth and had watered it with His blood. The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.” (AA 44)

TE: No, you stated before that "saved" was not "born again." "Born again" you said was equivalent to "converted," and has to do with knowing the 28 fundamenal beliefs. "Saved" just has to do with living up to the light you have. So an non-SDA can be saved, but not converted. This is what you said. I can produce your statements if you wish.

MM: Born again believers are “saved” so long as they are abiding in Jesus, so long as they are obeying everything Jesus commanded. People who have not completed the process of converting are “saved” so long as they are living up the light they believe is right and true.

TE: “Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” I believe Luther was converted, saved, born again, and justified by faith, all of which are describing the same thing.

MM: You didn’t answer the question.

TE: “Your answer to the title of this thread is – Yes, God does wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits. And the reason He waits is because they are unwilling to receive the truths that would require them to confess and forsake certain of their sinful habits.” I wouldn't say that's not necessarily the reason. Why did Luther remain a beer drinker?

MM: Tom, this is what you posted about it: “God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!” [86300] What do you mean?

TE: “Living up to all the light people believe is right and true is not always the same thing as learning how to obey everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” You are asking if not everyone has light on everything Christ taught? Yes, I agree with that. I also agree it's good to live up to the light you have.

TE: “Are you saying people we were living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant church during the Dark Ages, before Jesus raised up the SDA church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages?” I'm quoting your position. You are saying that one needs to know the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted.

MM: But what people who lived during the Dark Ages? Were they living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

TE: “Are you saying we totally agree on what it means to mature in the fruits of the Spirit after people are born again?” Since we disagree as to what it means to be converted, and as to what the important issues are, I doubt we agree on what this means. But I agree that when one is born again, one begins to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

MM: Here is what Paul wrote about people maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. “They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” But you are saying it doesn’t matter if they have crucified their sinful habits.

TE: I'm saying what I wrote, but my words mean something different to me than they do to you. I won't repeat what you believe the words mean, because you already know, and I know what you mean by them. So I'll just clarify what they mean to me. They mean to be like Christ in character. They have begun a walk with Him. Like the new Christians in Acts, that people looked at, and mocked as "Christians," because they were followers of Christ.

MM: But you believe people are like Jesus irrespective of their sinful habits, that it doesn’t matter if they are obeying everything He commanded.

TE: “Are you saying non-SDAs are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?” Moses was a non-SDA. Luther was a non-SDA. Peter was a non-SDA. William Miller was a non-SDA. Abraham was a non-SDA. To obey everything that God commands involves present truth. The light of one day is not the same as the light in another, and even in one day it's not always the case that everyone has equal access to that light.

MM: So, are you saying non-SDAs do not live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

TV: What is counterfeit religion? Uhm, a religion that has the apparence or the appeal of the true religion, without having Christ as its foundation. That could be anything from the Wicca coven to the Buddhist stupa to a Muslim mosque to probably include one or another SDA church where much form of godliness is to be found but none of its power.

MM: I can see why you would lump certain SDA churches with Wicca. If what you believe is true, it makes perfect sense.

TE: No. I'm saying what I said. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light. This is Biblical.

MM: Even if they are ignorant of the truths that can set them free from their sinful habits?

Jesus Christ is the truth who sets us free from our sinful habits. The Holy Spirit presents Christ to the prospective believer. When Christ is accepted, the power over sin is broken.

TE: “That the Holy Spirit will occupy a divided throne?” The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it. (remember, he accepted Christ as His personal Savior.)

MM: Are you saying Jesus will occupy the throne of their heart before it is cleansed of sinful habits?

"The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it." I believe this clearly answers your question. Any sin which would prevent Christ from sitting on the throne is revealed. These are what Waggoner refers to as the "representative sins" of our lives.

TE: “No one can complete the process of converting from not knowing everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded before they learn how to obey everything He commanded. Do you agree?” I believe a person is converted, as I've said very many times now, when (s)he accepts Christ.

MM: Okay, so you believe they accept Jesus irrespective of the truths that can set them free of their sinful habits.

Jesus Christ sets them free from their sinful habits. When the accept Him, they have the victory which overcomes the world.

TE: Conversion does not have to do with being translated alive. You're the only one I've ever met that has this idea. Conversion has to do with being right with God, being justified, being saved.

MM: But you believe “being right with God” has nothing to do with obeying everything Jesus commanded.

Try rephrasing this please. "Nothing do to with obeying everything" is a bit confusing.

TE: The publican was not justified? nor converted? MM, justification by faith and pardon are one and the same. When the publican asked for pardon, he received it, as did David, which Paul points out in Romans 4. Do you believe he wasn't forgiven?

MM: Again, the publican embarked upon the process of conversion, he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was saved in the sense he was living up to the light he believed is right and true. So was David.

Saved but not converted?

TE: The people at Pentecost weren't aware of everything Jesus taught. How could they have been? There were many Gentiles there. Acts demonstrates that the "many things" had yet to be determined. The were converted as a result of believing Peter's preaching, which is recorded in Acts. It was the Gospel of Christ crucified that led to their being converted.

MM: Here is what Sister White wrote about it: “During His life on this earth He had sown the seed of truth and had watered it with His blood. The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.” (AA 44)

Sure. The Apostles taught what they learned of Christ. They presented Christ crucified, and through the Holy Spirit many souls were convicted and converted. But remember that these were largely Gentiles, who had no acquaintance with the "all things" you are talking about. These would have been explained to them after they were converted, and as I explained previously, these "all things" weren't even agreed to for some time.

TE: No, you stated before that "saved" was not "born again." "Born again" you said was equivalent to "converted," and has to do with knowing the 28 fundamenal beliefs. "Saved" just has to do with living up to the light you have. So an non-SDA can be saved, but not converted. This is what you said. I can produce your statements if you wish.

MM: Born again believers are “saved” so long as they are abiding in Jesus, so long as they are obeying everything Jesus commanded. People who have not completed the process of converting are “saved” so long as they are living up the light they believe is right and true.

This is what you were saying before. But as I pointed out before, Ellen White says that being born again is a condition to being saved. So your distinction here is faulty. You can't be saved without being born again. In other words, all who are saved have been born again.

TE: “Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” I believe Luther was converted, saved, born again, and justified by faith, all of which are describing the same thing.

MM: You didn’t answer the question.

"Luther was converted." How does that not answer the question?

TE: “Your answer to the title of this thread is – Yes, God does wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits. And the reason He waits is because they are unwilling to receive the truths that would require them to confess and forsake certain of their sinful habits.” I wouldn't say that's not necessarily the reason. Why did Luther remain a beer drinker?

MM: Tom, this is what you posted about it: “God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!” [86300] What do you mean?

TE: “Living up to all the light people believe is right and true is not always the same thing as learning how to obey everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” You are asking if not everyone has light on everything Christ taught? Yes, I agree with that. I also agree it's good to live up to the light you have.

TE: “Are you saying people we were living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant church during the Dark Ages, before Jesus raised up the SDA church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages?” I'm quoting your position. You are saying that one needs to know the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted.

MM: But what people who lived during the Dark Ages? Were they living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

TE: “Are you saying we totally agree on what it means to mature in the fruits of the Spirit after people are born again?” Since we disagree as to what it means to be converted, and as to what the important issues are, I doubt we agree on what this means. But I agree that when one is born again, one begins to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

MM: Here is what Paul wrote about people maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. “They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” But you are saying it doesn’t matter if they have crucified their sinful habits.

TE: I'm saying what I wrote, but my words mean something different to me than they do to you. I won't repeat what you believe the words mean, because you already know, and I know what you mean by them. So I'll just clarify what they mean to me. They mean to be like Christ in character. They have begun a walk with Him. Like the new Christians in Acts, that people looked at, and mocked as "Christians," because they were followers of Christ.

MM: But you believe people are like Jesus irrespective of their sinful habits, that it doesn’t matter if they are obeying everything He commanded.

TE: “Are you saying non-SDAs are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?” Moses was a non-SDA. Luther was a non-SDA. Peter was a non-SDA. William Miller was a non-SDA. Abraham was a non-SDA. To obey everything that God commands involves present truth. The light of one day is not the same as the light in another, and even in one day it's not always the case that everyone has equal access to that light.

MM: So, are you saying non-SDAs do not live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

This is really confusing. I don't know where your questions or comments for this current post are or which are from previous posts. Do you disagree with anything I wrote in the previous paragraph? (starting with "TE:" just above). People are not judged according to light that they do not have. You have a wonderful way of phrasing things in a "have you quit beating your wife" kind of way. I can't answer your question "yes" or "no," because doing so would be an acceptance of your premise,(your definition of what living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded means). I reject your premise. One does not have to be an SDA to be converted. One does not have to be born after 1844 to be converted.

I would say that anyone who responds to all the light they have been given (without purposely avoiding any opportunities to avoid light) is living in harmony with what Jesus commanded. Being in harmony with God encompasses this. How could it not? How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?

Mike

Im sure there are certain SDA churches which would just as easily be lumped with 1st century pharisee religion. On the same grounds as mentioned in the passage you quoted.