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Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: asygo] #86687
03/20/07 03:25 PM
03/20/07 03:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The following description of the experience of the 144,000 during the time of trouble makes it clear that they are not more “fit” than saints like Paul and John. “…they have never made it a habit to trust in God.” “… faith, hope, and patience … have been too little exercised during their religious experience.”

 Quote:
Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. {GC 618.3}

They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them. {GC 619.2}

God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement. {GC 622.1}

They themselves begin to fear that the Lord has left them to fall by the hand of their enemies. It is a time of fearful agony. {GC 630.1}

As they endeavor to wait trustingly for the Lord to work they are led to exercise faith, hope, and patience, which have been too little exercised during their religious experience. {GC 630.2}

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86696
03/20/07 04:18 PM
03/20/07 04:18 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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I think he means that they are "fit" after their earthliness is consumed. So that doesn't really bug me.

What does bug me is the idea that the fit man represents humans. I believe that the fit man represents Christ and His work. Christ is the one who leads Satan to his death.

Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to ask Dennis Priebe that. Maybe next time.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: gordonb1] #86931
03/24/07 10:11 PM
03/24/07 10:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Mike, you also shared the following thought which I've not seen before. Do you have evidence for this viewpoint? It appears to be more than opinion. Please provide your source(s):

"Some resurrected saints are more mature, more seasoned, more developed than some translated saints. In other words, they are more fit for heaven. In fact, people like Paul and John are more mature, more fit than the fittest of translated saints. They would have fared more famously during the final tribulation than did the translated saints."

Gordon, I addressed this in my last post. What do you think?

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86933
03/25/07 01:42 AM
03/25/07 01:42 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Hello Mike,

These are good passages for reflection. Which is what I will do - reflect. They do not however show a comparison with how Paul or John would have faired. It seems clear to me that the 144,000 experience is unlike any before them, save that of Christ.

Certainly they (we?) will see their unworthiness and weakness. How can you be sure some resurrected saints are more fit? Proof of the comparison and difference is what I seek. Have you read this or concluded this by distillation of sources & ideas? Food for thought.

Gordon

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #86989
03/27/07 12:46 AM
03/27/07 12:46 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,569
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
If Jesus settled everything, if He disproved all of Satan’s lies and accusations, why, then, are we still here?


Are you saying that Jesus did not refute all of Satan's charges before He went back to Heaven?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: gordonb1] #87031
03/27/07 04:05 PM
03/27/07 04:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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G: It seems clear to me that the 144,000 experience is unlike any before them, save that of Christ.

MM: I agree.

G: Have you read this or concluded this by distillation of sources & ideas?

MM: It's a deduction based on a compilation of quotes. The quotes I provided above suggest that at least some of the 144,000 are not in the same spiritual giants category as were Paul and John. Giants like them fair better.

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: asygo] #87032
03/27/07 04:08 PM
03/27/07 04:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: asygo
Are you saying that Jesus did not refute all of Satan's charges before He went back to Heaven?

Sister White seems to indicate it.

DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Mountain Man] #87095
03/28/07 02:21 AM
03/28/07 02:21 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,569
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: asygo
Are you saying that Jesus did not refute all of Satan's charges before He went back to Heaven?

Sister White seems to indicate it.


Switching gears a bit, would you say then that Christ's human nature had nothing to do with refuting Satan's charges, since He apparently didn't get it done before He left?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: asygo] #151521
04/03/13 02:28 PM
04/03/13 02:28 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: asygo
I just listened to a sermon by Dennis Priebe. You can find the details here and download the sermon here.

What I understood him to say was that Christ's life was insufficient to convince the universe that man can obey God's law, that the 144k is the final "proof" that man can keep God's law. Without the perfection of the 144k, the whole human race would be lost, including the faithful ones of old.

Listen to the sermon and tell me what you think.


I haven't listened to his sermon, and just encountered this thread. I don't presently have a good internet connection, so it's text only. However, by the description, it looks just like the sermon I preached a few weeks ago.

As Mike so aptly queried, Why are we still here? If the great controversy were finished at the cross, why would God yet tolerate sin so much longer? It is odious to Him, abominable, and filthy. It would be like a parent seeing the soiled diaper of her child and just letting him wallow in it for another couple of miserable days. What would be the purpose in that?

The fact is, God's victory was won at the cross, but ours wasn't. Satan's claim from the beginning of the Great Controversy has been that God's law is not fair, that it cannot be kept. When Jesus came and lived a perfect life, He disproved Satan's claim. But Satan could then make a counter-claim. His claim now was that Jesus, creator of the law and fully divine, could naturally be expected to have power to keep it--but none of the representatives of fallen humanity could do so. The watching universe would have seen the sense in this argument, and doubts would still have remained in their minds. Suppose even that one or two humans, like Enoch, managed to reach a more perfect state, Satan could still claim that these were "flukes" and that it was not generally possible.

In order for God to be proven true and just with respect to His law, He needed a large number of people who could reflect His character perfectly in obedience to His law. This will happen with the 144,000. It will never have been equaled before that.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Role of the 144,000 [Re: Green Cochoa] #151525
04/03/13 03:16 PM
04/03/13 03:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
GC, I agree with you that the 144,000 will demonstrate a depth of salvation that no human has ever proven before. Satan will be given freedom to tempt them to whatever degree he deems necessary to deceive them into sin. Hitherto Jesus has limited Satan, not allowing him to tempt humans too severely. But not so during the time of Jacob's trouble. Though they will suffer greatly, they will remain faithful to Jesus, they will not sin. The watching universe, including evil angels, will be forced to confess, "Jesus Christ is Lord." "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

I also agree with you Jesus did not, could not, demonstrate this truth while here in the flesh. Nevertheless, He will prove it in and through the 144,000. However, I do not believe the 144,000 will be more holy, more righteous, or more obedient than others who enter the kingdom of God. Everyone who enters the pearly gates will be holy and righteous and obedient. No one can go to heaven without it. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." The thief on the cross and the apostle John were equally holy and righteous and obedient. The only difference between the two is measured in terms of maturity. In some cases, resurrected saints will be more mature than the 144,000.

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