Too many seem to have the idea that had Jesus failed that God would have to call Moses, Elijah and Enoch and have them face an angelic fireing squad while an angelic chori sings the doxology. But Mrs. White in her Great Controversy lets us know about the universal implact of the Great Controversy. Had Jesus failed the whole universe would have found God not to be all that God claims to be, would have lost their life giving connection to the only source of life. All creatures would have stopped existing, the universe would have come crashing down around God and God would have realized that God was not really how God understands God's self, that God is selfish and does not live by self sacrificing love, and it would have been hell for God. The sepperation from the beloved creatures because of God's selfishness, and the realization of this selfishness would have been horrible "wrath" of God upon himself.

Thomas, X is the death of Christ and Y is the future of humanity. Paul's opinion that the cross is the power of God makes one wonder how He had the power to create without the cross.

That's hilarious.

I agree with your plan. I'm keeping all my foreknowledge stuff in the foreknowledge thread.

This passage is pretty convincing: Matthew 16:21-23 - From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Jesus: I will be killed then rise again.
Peter: No way.
Jesus: You don't know what God wants.

Can you give the reference for that? I'd like to dig.

It seems Paul found it rather important.

The clearests references are the chapters "Why Was Sin Permitted" "The Orgin of Evil" "It is Finished." and the entire book "Confrontation" (I think that is the titile, it's a small book written about the wilderness temptation)

For example Desire of Ages pg 764 says "At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full results of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apperent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce it's deadly fruit of sin and woe."

Had Jesus in his humanity had any taint of selfishness, had any implications to feel he would be for himself by making less of the outside world, instead of loving it on an honest basis. Had Jesus and/or the Father been selfish by deciding to be together at our expence and thus not let my sin sepperate them, had the Holy Spirit become so worried that Jesus might fail that he would have taken control of Jesus' will instead of allowing Jesus to surrender it to him, had they done the slightest taint of anything besides self sacrificing love, had they trusted in anything else but their righteousness by faith relationship to each other, God would not have been what he claims, and would not have been worth having the life giving connection with.

God would have proved to be a tyrant, where it would be better to be dead than to live with this tyrant, and God would have been driven mad by this inconsistancy in himself

We must not forget that the gospels were written decades after the events they describe.

There is no question that Paul found it to be important.

We remember. But regardless, this description of an old event still helps answer the question, "How did we become so convinced that the future of the human race depended on what happened on the cross?"