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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #87352
04/01/07 06:34 PM
04/01/07 06:34 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I think the meaning of this quote is made clear two pages ahead:

“From the destruction of Jerusalem, Christ passed on rapidly to the greater event, the last link in the chain of this earth's history,--the coming of the Son of God in majesty and glory. Between these two events, there lay open to Christ's view long centuries of darkness, centuries for His church marked with blood and tears and agony. Upon these scenes His disciples could not then endure to look, and Jesus passed them by with a brief mention” (DA 630, 631).



This is exactly what I am saying! God gives the prophecys so that the generation can have the possibility of spreading the gospel into all the world and have the second coming tied to events in their time... such as the exile, the fall of Jerusalem, the Domitian persecution, October 22, 1844, and events open to us today. But God sees when the perfect time will be, He teaches us principles when we study what Could have happened, we will find the principles of what WILL happen. But if we think that it is mearly written in cement and going to fit our little box, then the only differnce between us and the dispensationalists is who's words tickel your ears.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #87353
04/01/07 06:41 PM
04/01/07 06:41 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
 Quote:
If the date were fixed, then we would have the privilege of looking for it, but not have hastening it.

If the church had been ready before, the date would have been fixed earlier, but from the beginning God knows when this date will be, because He knows when the church will be ready.

"But like the stars in the vast circuit of their appointed path, God's purposes know no haste and no delay. ... So in heaven's council the hour for the coming of Christ had been determined. When the great clock of time pointed to that hour, Jesus was born in Bethlehem" (DA 32).

If this was true for the first coming, why not for the second?

"We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ. . . . Why has not God given us this knowledge?--Because we would not make a right use of it if He did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly retard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come." – LDE 33

"But the day and the hour of His coming Christ has not revealed. He stated plainly to His disciples that He Himself could not make known the day or the hour of His second appearing. Had He been at liberty to reveal this, why need He have exhorted them to maintain an attitude of constant expectancy? There are those who claim to know the very day and hour of our Lord's appearing. Very earnest are they in mapping out the future. But the Lord has warned them off the ground they occupy. The exact time of the second coming of the Son of man is God's mystery." DA 632, 633

These quotes make clear that God knows the day and the hour of Christ's coming, but deliberately chose to conceal this knowledge from us.



Rosa, what you say is COMPLETELY true, however it is not the COMPLETE truth. The problem is that you have taken half the truth and have used it against the other half of the truth.

All of us see through a glass dimly and the only place where truth dwells completely is in Jesus, but we are in danger whenever we use part of the truth AGAINST the rest of the truth.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #87354
04/01/07 06:43 PM
04/01/07 06:43 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If the church had been ready before, the date would have been fixed earlier, but from the beginning God knows when this date will be, because He knows when the church will be ready.

The position you are presenting here is known as "simple foreknowledge." (see, e.g., http://www.basictheology.com/definitions/Simple_Foreknowledge/). One of it's problems is that God is powerless to affect the future. He can see what will happen, but He can't do anything to affect it.

Also your logic is backwards. The date is fixed *before* any decisions were made by the church. All the church can do is play out the role God has foreseen. It can make no decisions which actually affect anything (they are as powerless as God in this respect).


"But like the stars in the vast circuit of their appointed path, God's purposes know no haste and no delay. ... So in heaven's council the hour for the coming of Christ had been determined. When the great clock of time pointed to that hour, Jesus was born in Bethlehem" (DA 32).

If this was true for the first coming, why not for the second?

Because the Second Coming can be hastened!

 Quote:
"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.

It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). (COL 69)


"We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ. . . . Why has not God given us this knowledge?--Because we would not make a right use of it if He did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly retard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come." – LDE 33

"But the day and the hour of His coming Christ has not revealed. He stated plainly to His disciples that He Himself could not make known the day or the hour of His second appearing. Had He been at liberty to reveal this, why need He have exhorted them to maintain an attitude of constant expectancy? There are those who claim to know the very day and hour of our Lord's appearing. Very earnest are they in mapping out the future. But the Lord has warned them off the ground they occupy. The exact time of the second coming of the Son of man is God's mystery." DA 632, 633

These quotes make clear that God knows the day and the hour of Christ's coming, but deliberately chose to conceal this knowledge from us.

That doesn't make sense given that a)Ellen White often wrote that Christ "could have come before now" b)We have the privilege of hastening Christ's coming. If the date were fixed, neither of these things would be possible.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Kevin H] #87360
04/01/07 07:35 PM
04/01/07 07:35 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
This is exactly what I am saying! God gives the prophecys so that the generation can have the possibility of spreading the gospel into all the world and have the second coming tied to events in their time

Kevin,
The Jews rejected Christ exactly because they tried to apply the prophecies of the Messiah as King to their time! Like Ellen White said, “the word was true, but it was truth placed in the wrong setting.” The prophecies about the Messiah as King applied to the second coming, not to the first!

In the same way, Christ just didn’t tell the disciples clearly that He wouldn’t come at the destruction of Jerusalem because they couldn’t endure it at the time. But at His ascension, He told the disciples, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority” (Acts 1:7). That is, they should be always prepared for Christ’s second coming, not wait for it to occur at the destruction of Jerusalem or at any other particular time. Although the gospel was preached to the whole world as Paul knew it, he understood that Christ wouldn’t come in his time, because “that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition” (2 Thess. 2:3). And then with the prophecies of John in Revelation that man of sin was more clearly defined. So Christ couldn’t have come before some other prophecies were fulfilled, although the people of God in general didn’t understand these prophecies (since the book of Daniel was sealed until the time of the end).

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #87364
04/01/07 07:50 PM
04/01/07 07:50 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
While it is indeed what Mrs. White said, it is not ALL she said. Once again, you quote the quotes that support the half of the truth. Since you are indeed saying the truth you can find tons of quotes to support what you say. The problem is with the other quotes. Once again I appeal to "Destroyed for Lack of Knowlege" and "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy."

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87367
04/01/07 07:55 PM
04/01/07 07:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
One of it's problems is that God is powerless to affect the future. He can see what will happen, but He can't do anything to affect it.

I completely disagree. If God knows that the plane I plan to board is going to crash, He can prevent me from boarding the plane if He so wishes.

 Quote:
Because the Second Coming can be hastened!

Then Ellen White’s statement is not always true. In relation to the second coming God’s purposes can know haste and delay.
 Quote:
That doesn't make sense given that a)Ellen White often wrote that Christ "could have come before now" b)We have the privilege of hastening Christ's coming. If the date were fixed, neither of these things would be possible.

Christ could have come before now - if the church had been ready before now – this is perfectly true.

We have the privilege of hastening Christ’s coming – the date of Christ’s coming depends, partly at least, on His church – if the church reflects Christ’s character, this will arouse the persecution of the world, humanity will be divided into two classes, and the world will get ripe for Christ’s coming. But God already knows when all this will occur, so He determined the date for Christ’s coming based on this knowledge, or foreknowledge.

Now, one of EGW's quotes, for instance, says that God hasn’t given us the knowledge of the time of Christ’s coming because we would not make a right use of it if He did. Another quote says that Christ could not make known the day or the hour of His second appearing because He wasn’t at liberty to reveal this. These words make no sense if God doesn't know the day and hour of the second coming.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Kevin H] #87369
04/01/07 08:08 PM
04/01/07 08:08 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Kevin,

What I see in that chapter of Prophets and Kings is that the ten tribes, "until the end of time ... were to be 'wanderers among the nations.' [which indeed has happened] But through Hosea was given a prophecy that set before them the privilege of having a part in the final restoration that is to be made to the people of God at the close of earth's history, when Christ shall appear as King of kings and Lord of lords [which is yet to happen, when the Jews join the commandment-keeping people of God]." (PK 298)

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #87375
04/01/07 09:00 PM
04/01/07 09:00 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
Keep reading

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Kevin H] #87379
04/01/07 10:37 PM
04/01/07 10:37 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,122
Nova Scotia, Canada
The following tells me that the Father knows the day and the hour of the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ:

 Quote:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Christ, at least while on the earth, didn't know the day and the hour of His 2nd coming, however, as the above shows, the Father did, therefore, the day and the hour of Christ's 2nd coming was foreknown by the Father way back then.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Daryl] #87380
04/01/07 10:41 PM
04/01/07 10:41 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,122
Nova Scotia, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Before I get back to the 2300 days in Daniel 8, I'd like to point out. I do not have the date, but there is a Signs of the Times article where Mrs. White says that Miller was right and that Jesus could have come on October 22, 1844,(if I recall correctly the words were something like "There was no reason why William Miller could not have diserned from the scripture the coming of the Lord") but she goes on to say that Jesus did not because he knew that too many were not ready so like with Nineveh, God gave them more time, and that instead of making fun of the Millerites they should have been greatful that God gave them more time.

I did an EGW CD word search without any success, therefore, in order to verify that the quote does exist, I am requesting more information.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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