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Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: Tammy Roesch] #89352
05/30/07 04:20 PM
05/30/07 04:20 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Mike being accused of being a liberal? Now I must have seen it all...

Pauls letter to the Galatians anyone?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: Mountain Man] #89380
05/31/07 02:53 PM
05/31/07 02:53 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tammy, what would you do if an under-dressed lady was interested in learning about Jesus at your home church? Would you instruct her on how not to dress? Or, would you first demonstrate the love of God by accepting her as she is, and then lead her into all truth?

Dose it tell us anything, when so far this part of Mountain Man's question, has been totally ignored?

How would Jesus, our example relate to someone, who on outward appearance, doesn't conform to our "light" on dress?

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: crater] #89381
05/31/07 03:19 PM
05/31/07 03:19 PM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Please don't confuse the issue. We are not talking about those who do not have the light. We are talking about seasoned SDA's and the wives of ministers. Have you forgotten how Jesus came into the temple and turned over the tables? There is a side of Jesus that says "enough is enough", like when He said, "you have made MY house a den of thieves...." Not long after that, He said, regarding the same "house", "YOUR house is left unto you desolate..." That is about where we are at, folks.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: crater] #89382
05/31/07 03:24 PM
05/31/07 03:24 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Well, considering that Jesus got a bad reputation among the defenders of public morality of his day, I think that Jesus would have respected the person and presented God and the choise to follow or not to follow clearly. Then He would have asked her to follow Him, to wich the woman would either have agreed or declined.
Remember the woman at the well, one whos reputation would likely make her life very hard if she was to join a church of the guardians of public morality, and remember how Jesus went out of His way to meet this woman as an equal and respect her, something unheard of in His day and age. Or the woman who "embalmed" Jesus as Simons, the guardian of public morality, house, remember whom Jesus ended up talking straight at that event.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: Tammy Roesch] #89383
05/31/07 03:29 PM
05/31/07 03:29 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
Please don't confuse the issue. We are not talking about those who do not have the light. We are talking about seasoned SDA's and the wives of ministers. Have you forgotten how Jesus came into the temple and turned over the tables? There is a side of Jesus that says "enough is enough", like when He said, "you have made MY house a den of thieves...." Not long after that, He said, regarding the same "house", "YOUR house is left unto you desolate..." That is about where we are at, folks.
It would be the same thing if you can show that either the pastors wife or the seasoned SDA's dressed as they did for personal gain and not for Gods glory. But this you can not do unless you have recieved a special revelation from God for you to bring to these people. Unless God has thus spoken to you, making judgements of this kind is out of your depth as it is out of all our depth. Only God judges hearts and minds and we better remember that.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: vastergotland] #89384
05/31/07 03:34 PM
05/31/07 03:34 PM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Again, you are confusing the issue...the woman at the well was not a Pastor's wife or a seasoned Jew.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: vastergotland] #89386
05/31/07 04:48 PM
05/31/07 04:48 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Hello Thomas,

How can a person dressed like a harlot bring glory to God when they are in the tithe supported ministry?

They cannot, for they draw attention to themselves alone. Paul wrote "that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness, and sobriety...with good works" 1 Timothy 2:9, 10. This was his recommendation in the KJV. I realize your eBible may read differently, but it is a principal found in both Old & New Testaments, that the ministry provide a chaste and holy example for the people. They are meant to be God's representatives and are usually supported by tithe.

In Tammy's example, this women was passing the offering plate while advertising her wares. The overall issue is not money, but morals. Each of us is responsible for our influence. If my example leads another to stumble because I have lowered the standard, then I shoulder some responsibility and guilt. The same applies to denominations.

How many teen pregnancies and broken homes stem from our low moral examples?
As our brother's keeper, we would never place a stumbling block before others. Christ did not do this. Paul taught this principle, that leading another to stumble was a "sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat maketh my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend." 1 Corinthians 8: 12,13.

It is likely that Tammy has received a special revelation from God about dress. I know very many who have received this through reading the Bible and counsels of Ellen White. Both come from God and agree.

My clothes don't change my thinking - but my thinking will change my clothes. Our outward deportment (speech, manners, dress) reflect the inner man.

Does Jesus love the pastor's wife with her lavish display? Of course. He sees her great need for love, security and worth, as He sees it in all sinners. He sees our great lack; our poor, blind nakedness (Rev. 3:17). Are we fit to be His messengers and take from His treasury before receiving His robe of righteousness? No, we cannot be ambassadors if we do not represent the King.

Gordon

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: Mountain Man] #89395
06/01/07 01:57 AM
06/01/07 01:57 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yeah, I know what you mean. Please don't misunderstand me. I knew I was taking a risk in my last post. ... Please hear me.


I think I understand what you're saying. I'm just giving you one possible reason why you see what you see. There are many other possibilities also.

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I am talking specifically about people who are not bothered by impure thoughts when they see under-dressed members in church.


I suppose it is possible to get to the point where one is not bothered by impure thoughts. But whatever the details of that possibility is, it cannot contradict this truth:
 Quote:
There are thoughts and feelings suggested and aroused by Satan that annoy even the best of men; but if they are not cherished, if they are repulsed as hateful, the soul is not contaminated with guilt, and no other is defiled by their influence. {RH, March 27, 1888 par. 15}


Even in that case, I would suggest that people would still be bothered by under-dressed members, if for no other reason than that they may be a stumbling-block to those less mature.

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
As you say, they are desensitized, and it takes a lot more nudity to tempt them.


What I meant by desensitized is that they are accustomed to the situation, not necessarily that the situation is not harmful to them. Remember my example of 2nd-hand smoke to the smoker. It's not that 2nd-hand smoke does not harm the smoker, it's just that he is used to it. Regardless of how he feels about it, the damage is done nonetheless.

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I'm not so sure being desensitized is "evil".


I believe the desensitization that I am talking about is definitely evil. Do you agree?

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Women wearing pants was considered evil even by worldly standards.


Actually, the so-called Reform Dress included pants. Pants were not considered inherently evil. However, they were considered inherently unfashionable.

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
But today when we see women wearing modest pants it does not tempt us with impure thoughts.

Why the change?


Here we get to more important issues.

"Modest pants do not tempt us with impure thoughts." Let's assume that is accurate. One possible reason for that may be that we have matured to the point where such things no longer prompt impure thoughts. IOW, we are generally getting better.

But the statement might only appear accurate because our standard of purity has declined. IOW, what we used to know to be unholy we now consider acceptable.

Another possibility is that we have a more accurate understanding of what is unholy. IOW, what we used to think was unholy we now know to be acceptable.

But notice that the standard I go by is the objective standard of God's will. Fashion and whatever the rest of the world thinks is acceptable is of no relevance.

But as we discuss this, let's keep this in mind:
 Quote:
The Reform Dress.--The reform dress, which was once advocated, [THE "REFORM DRESS" ADVOCATED AND ADOPTED IN THE 1860'S WAS DESIGNED BY A GROUP OF SDA WOMEN IN AN ATTEMPT TO PROVIDE A HEALTHFUL, MODEST, COMFORTABLE, AND NEAT ATTIRE IN HARMONY WITH THE LIGHT GIVEN ELLEN WHITE, WHICH WAS MUCH NEEDED AT THE TIME. SEE PP. 252-255. IT CALLED FOR LOOSE-FITTING GARMENTS HUNG FROM THE SHOULDERS WITH A HEMLINE ABOUT NINE INCHES FROM THE FLOOR. THE LOWER LIMBS WERE CLOTHED WITH A TROUSERLIKE GARMENT PROVIDING COMFORT AND WARMTH. SEE STORY OF OUR HEALTH MESSAGE, PP. 112-130.--COMPILERS.] proved a battle at every step. Members of the church, refusing to adopt this healthful style of dress, caused dissension and discord. With some there was no uniformity and taste in the preparation of the dress as it had been plainly set before them. This was food for talk. The result was that the objectionable features, the pants, were left off. The burden of advocating the reform dress was removed because that which was given as a blessing was turned into a curse. {3SM 253.2}

There were some things that made the reform dress a decided blessing. With it the ridiculous hoops which were then the fashion, could not possibly be worn. The long dress skirts trailing on the ground and sweeping up the filth of the streets could not be patronized. But a more sensible style of dress has now been adopted which does not embrace these objectionable features. The fashionable style of dress may be discarded and should be by all who will read the Word of God. The time spent in advocating the dress reform should be devoted to the study of the Word of God. {3SM 253.3}

The dress of our people should be made most simple. The skirt and sacque I have mentioned may be used-- not that just that pattern and nothing else should be established, but a simple style as was represented in that dress. Some have supposed that the very pattern given was the pattern that all were to adopt. This is not so. But something as simple as this would be the best we could adopt under the circumstances. No one precise style has been given me as the exact rule to guide all in their dress. . . . {3SM 254.1}

Simple dresses should be worn. Try your talent, my sisters, in this essential reform. {3SM 254.2}

The people of God will have all the test that they can bear. {3SM 254.3}

The Sabbath question is a test that will come to the whole world. We need nothing to come in now to make a test for God's people that shall make more severe for them the test they already have. The enemy would be pleased to get up issues now to divert the minds of the people and get them into controversy over the subject of dress. Let our sisters dress plainly, as many do, having the dress of good material, durable, modest, appropriate for this age, and let not the dress question fill the mind. . . . {3SM 254.4}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: asygo] #89402
06/01/07 09:21 AM
06/01/07 09:21 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
 Originally Posted By: asygo

But notice that the standard I go by is the objective standard of God's will. Fashion and whatever the rest of the world thinks is acceptable is of no relevance.


Amen!


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: A Christian Guide to Dress--Part One [Re: Tammy Roesch] #89411
06/01/07 03:31 PM
06/01/07 03:31 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Arnold,

In Jesus day men also wore a robe rather than pants. Maybe the desenzitation starts there already. I suggest that if the wearing of pants in itself is a proof of desensitation and a source for temptation, then all of us, both men and women must reject pants for other kinds of clothes. How about getting out to buy a couple of scottish kilts?

Gordon,

Can a person dressed like a harlot bring glory to God? Well, just such an event is described at least twise (luk 7:37ff; Joh 8) in the gospels alone so it can be done. Does this mean that this is always the outcome? No, of course not, but Gods glory (and the white robe of His righteousness) does not sit in the clothes. What your reference to "tithe supported ministry" has to do with any of this, I have no idea.
Considering the recomendation from Paul in his letter to Timothy that you refered to, I trust that you always pray with your hands lifted up to God... However, it is true that Paul commends modesty. I would remember though, that modesty is relative and a dress that would be modest at the 4th of July party thrown by the President of USA would non the less be overkill and not modest whatsoever at a 4th of July party held by latin american immigrants newly arrived from Mexico. Again, I dont know what tithe has to do with this subject.
Teen pregnancies and broken homes are of course not a good thing. But they happen and how do we react to them? The way the church family reacts to a teen pregnancy or a broken home might be deciding factors for wether the teen parent or the broken families will trust in God and stay with the church or reject both God and church. A situation which risks leading into either of these events should be discouraged, but in such a way that it can do some good rather than cause increased damage. Hit me in the head with the bible and my head will hurt but it is highly unlikely that it will have changed its mind, and if it does change its mind it is more likely that it changes away from your possition than towards it.
You wrote
 Quote:
My clothes don't change my thinking - but my thinking will change my clothes. Our outward deportment (speech, manners, dress) reflect the inner man.
While this might, I say might for this has the same lacks as other generalisations, be true, it does still not mean that the opposite is true. That your thinking may change your clothes does not mean that you by looking at someones clothes can see what they think. That only works with Amish and Mormon missionaries.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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