At Greg's request, we start this thread. For starters, you can read my paper on the topic: "The Seven Trumpets of Revelation: Were the Later Reformers Right?". In the paper is a link to a chart of 53 evangelical leaders who wrote between 1522 and 1798 showing their views on the trumpets.

Thank you Bob.
First of all since I do not have a completed study on the trumpets I feel awkward sharing half developed conclusions. So I will try to keep my ideas in question format because that is where I am at. I see myself somewhere in about a year or two completing my research of the trumpets. So with that introduction I will start.

First of all I believe that the trumpets are more important than we have given them credit for in that they anchor points of understanding and chronology. I do not understand all of what they do and thus my need to study. I feel strongly about the trumpets because I can't give a study on something I don't understand. The closest that I have been able to come in my understanding of the trumpets is that they should fit into the Daniel and Revelation structure. I believe that all of the major prophecies in Daniel and Revelation basically repeat and enlarge the prophecy in Daniel 2. That each time the vision is repeated it focuses on the same general subjects but with movement in time and focus on a new set of specifics. An example would be the little horn as an enlargement of the mixture of iron and clay. I also believe that Great Controversy is an overview of Revelation in simplified form. One of my reasons to want to study the trumpets is that EGW spends no visible time on them other than one reference about the Litch prophecy. So if Daniel 11 doesn't mention the "trumpets" and GC doesn't go into them much they are either ignored, doubtful, or I have had a misunderstanding of them. I have voted for the last interpretation. I personally believe that GC discusses the trumpets but she does it in a manner that requires us to understand the Bible more thoroughly. So those are my presuppositions and my goal.

Trumpet number 1. I believe that the hail and fire is a judgment that has come upon something. If you look at the text in I Peter 4:17 that judgment must begin at the house of the Lord then perhaps the first trumpet would be the destruction of Jerusalem. If that were the case I could grasp that 1/3 of the trees would be the leadership being partially destroyed but I could only assume that all the grass being burnt up would be that all the laity was affected by the judgment.

Lets work on this one for a while.

Greg,

I think it is a fallacy, though common, that Ellen White only refers to the trumpets once in GC regarding Litch. Since Rev. 10 and most of 11 are part of the 6th trumpet, she spends quite a bit of time on them.

If we just plow into the prophecy and start trying to interpret it, we will assuredly come up with as many viewpoints as there are people discussing it. What we need to do is to ascertain the parameters of the prophecy before interpreting it, and thus have some guidance when we come to that.

This is why I made a point in the paper of the trumpets having to start during Christ's daily ministry, and of starting after Israel had become synonymous with Babylon.

At any rate, since the symbols of the 1st judgment are used in Is. 28 to depict a judgment against apostate Israel, we could use that to connect it with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Except for one point: In Rev. 2 we have Jezebel, an obvious symbol of Babylon and the Catholic Church during the 1260 days/years of drought.

It would thus be more consistent to tie the 1st judgment to the so-called house of God of the Middle Ages as well. Otherwise we would have two apostate Israels being brought to view, and I don't know if we have this kind of thing in Revelation.

Bob:
How true that EGW speaks very loudly about the 6th trumpet. I was focusing on the first trumpets so I neglected that observation.

In reference to the first trumpet. Do you think that the fact of EGW putting so much emphasis on the destruction of Jerusalem in GC is a weight factor on it being the starting point of the trumpets?

I think C. Mervyn Maxwell thought so. But I think we still have to figure out why it would be so. And why would it be so except for a guess?

I agree that my points about it spanning the entire Christian era would harmonize better starting the trumpets in 70 AD rather than 395 AD. Yet:

1. It should have something to do with the prayers of the saints.
2. It should have something to do with apostate Israel.
3. It should have something to "Jezebel."
4. It should have something to do with the downfall of a heathen city.

Of these 4 points, only #2 fits the fall of Jerusalem.

Bob:
Thank you for the time to go through these things with me. Please let me reiterate that I do not have a finished understanding of the trumpets. I feel that I am some distance from being able to write my thinking down with any idea of how to connect all the issues. So currently I am just thinking out loud to the best of my abilities at the moment.

You commented on your last post:

I agree that my points about it spanning the entire Christian era would harmonize better starting the trumpets in 70 AD rather than 395 AD. Yet:

It should have something to do with the prayers of the saints.
Why do the prayers of the saints come in to the first trumpet? If they did the prayers of the saints are to accomplish the will of God. So I don't see why that would be out of harmony.[/b

It should have something to do with apostate Israel.
[b]All things have to do with spiritual Israel, physical Israel ended in 34AD. From 34 AD spiritual Israel is the primary focus.

It should have something to "Jezebel."
Why does Jezebel have to come in at trumpet number 1. Why can't she come in at trumpet number 2? Why can't she be the spiritual version of the burning mountain?

It should have something to do with the downfall of a heathen city.
Didn't literal Israel become a pagan nation at 34 AD? Didn't literal Jerusalem become a pagan city at 34 AD? Literal Jerusalem became a part of Babylon at the close of the 70 week prophecy.

Why would the 1st have to be connected with the prayers of the saints? It appears from the intro that the trumpets are in answer to the prayers of the saints in some way. Otherwise, why have an intro like that?

If all 7 trumpets were blown at Jericho in answer to Joshua's prayer for guidance, then all 7 trumpets in Rev. can be blown for a similar reason.

Spiritual Israel vs. literal Israel? Ellen White does name an OT prophecy about literal Israel that still applies to literal Israel, but I agree with you regarding here. Therefore, since the fall of Jerusalem did not have to do with apostate spiritual Israel, the first trump doesn't likely have to do with it.

Regarding Jezebel and the burning mtn. The latter is used in Jer. to refer to a judgment upon Babylon, not Israel. The first trump's symbols are used in Is. 28 to refer to a judgment upon apostate Israel. Literally, Jezebel was a part of Israel, not Babylon. So if anything, she has to come in in trump #1 rather than trump #2. More than that, of the first 4 trumpets, Israel is the receiver of the judgments in the OT parallel passages only in the 1st trumpet.

I would think it hard to prove that Jerusalem became part of Babylon in 34 AD. In Rev. 17 Babylon sits on 7 hills. Jerusalem doesn't. Babylon is synonymous with Rome. Rome was a heathen city which became part of God's professed people. Jezebel was a heathen princess who became part of God's professed people. Of course they both had daughters who were of the same stock.

Bob:
Why would the 1st have to be connected with the prayers of the saints? It appears from the intro that the trumpets are in answer to the prayers of the saints in some way. Otherwise, why have an intro like that?
If you are saying that the altar of incense is about prayer then we have something to discuss. Is that the idea?

If all 7 trumpets were blown at Jericho in answer to Joshua's prayer for guidance, then all 7 trumpets in Rev. can be blown for a similar reason.
I think that is one of the things that we need to discern. Are the trumpets for guidance, for war, or for judgment?

Spiritual Israel vs. literal Israel? Ellen White does name an OT prophecy about literal Israel that still applies to literal Israel, but I agree with you regarding here. Therefore, since the fall of Jerusalem did not have to do with apostate spiritual Israel, the first trump doesn't likely have to do with it.
I don't understand why the fall of Jerusalem did not have to do with apostate Israel. The churchs start with the true church and go with it throughout its checkered history including that branch of the true church that was in apostasy. Is there any thing that tells us that we can't start at the fall of Jerusalem?

Regarding Jezebel and the burning mtn. The latter is used in Jer. to refer to a judgment upon Babylon, not Israel. The first trump's symbols are used in Is. 28 to refer to a judgment upon apostate Israel. Literally, Jezebel was a part of Israel, not Babylon. So if anything, she has to come in in trump #1 rather than trump #2. More than that, of the first 4 trumpets, Israel is the receiver of the judgments in the OT parallel passages only in the 1st trumpet.
I would see Jezebel as an emissary of babylon that got attached to Israel. I see her sort of like Cozbi in the Numbers 25 story. She was an emissary of Midian, not an Israelite. She was attempting to bring down Israel. Jezebel was sent by satan with the intent to destroy Israel. It was her unlawful union with Ahab that set the stage for Elijah at Mt. Carmel. She wanted to bring Israel to total dependence upon baal/the beast.

I would think it hard to prove that Jerusalem became part of Babylon in 34 AD. In Rev. 17 Babylon sits on 7 hills. Jerusalem doesn't. Babylon is synonymous with Rome. Rome was a heathen city which became part of God's professed people. Jezebel was a heathen princess who became part of God's professed people. Of course they both had daughters who were of the same stock.
When literal Israels probation closed in 34 AD whose side was she on? Did she belong to Jesus any more? If she did not belong to Jesus whose was she? I believe that she belonged to satan and his kingdom babylon. In GC EGW states that there was a remarkable similarity between Israel in the time of Christ and the RCC. The fact of 7 hills is used to not to describe the literal place of rome but to describe her perfect control of the kingdoms. rome in the NT is not so much a description of the pagan or papal phases of rome as the spiritual description of its world wide dominion and its world wide apostasy from truth. To my way of thinking babylon is anything that is not of the new Jerusalem.

Greg,

The intro says that prayers were offered with the incense on the altar. So somehow the trumpets should have something to do with that.

When we run into symbols in Rev., we must go to where those symbols are taken from. Rev. 13 takes us to Dan. 7, etc. The 7 trumpets take us to Joshua, and there we find that the battle plan of 7 trumpets for the downfall of the heathen city came in answer to Joshua's prayer. Likewise, the 7 trumpets in Rev. involved with the downfall of Babylon come in answer to the prayers of the saints seen in the intro.

I don't see how we can call literal Israel "apostate spiritual Israel" in 70 AD.

I agree with your thoughts on Jezebel. Do you see any way for Jezebel to be involved with the fall of Jerusalem?

I think your last comments may answer that question. I'm not sure of what you wrote about the 7 hills. For one thing, the walls of Rome in John's day surrounded 7 and only 7 hills. Today they surround more. Particularly there is an 8th of special importance on the other side of the Tiber River called the Vatican. I think this fact must be taken into account when considering the "8th who is of the 7."

When one looks at the first verses of Rev. 18, it sounds like language taken from the OT about a city in ruins. This language literally fits Rome. From its height under the Caesars to just before the Reformation, it went down, down. Parts of the city became swamps. Parts were farmed. Most of it was vacant.

The literal situation illustrated the spiritual.

Rev. 18 is also interesting because the Vatican buildings lie on top of a cemetary. The language taken literally indicates that the Vatican is brought to view. And the literal illustrates the spiritual.

So I think that the 7 heads and 7 hills have to be taken literally before we can start deriving spiritual meaning from them.

Greg, two months ago, Bob and Jean were discussing the trumpets under a thread call The Unfulfilled Fall Feasts in the SDA Church Issues forum. He quoted the following three passages from the SOP that place the trumpets in the future. I think it is important to understand the historical application of the trumpets, and I agree with Smith in general on how they should be applied. But if the trumpets will be fullfilled literelly in the future, it is much more important to understand their future application.

You are correct in observing that Sister White has little to say about them directly. Aside from her references to Revelation 10 and 11, she always placed the trumpets in the future. Below are the quotes and immedieately following them is Bob's commentary from two months ago.

"The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth was to disclose her blood and no more cover her slain. Give the description in chapter 6.

But there are mercies mixed with judgment. Revelation 7 and 8:3, 4. The Lord has a people whom He will preserve. John beheld the "four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree" (Rev. 7:1, 3) till the seal of the living God shall be placed upon those who love God and keep His commandments.” (15MR 220)

“The battle of Armageddon will be fought. And that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. (3SM 426)

“We are standing on the threshold of great and solemn events. Many of the prophecies are about to be fulfilled in quick succession. Every element of power is about to be set to work. Past history will be repeated; old controversies will arouse to new life, and peril will beset God's people on every side.” (TM 116)

After citing these, Bob concluded in his Nov 10, 2001 post:

“If the seven trumpets are seven reformatory messages that took place when these military judgments occurred, then those reformatory messages will likely be repeated in the loud cry, even though the associated military judgments, Millerite Movement, and French Revolution will not be.” Nov 10, 2001 post by Bob.

In other words Bob says, yes, the trumpet messages of Revelation will be repeated, but they will not be related to the judgment of the living. And they are unrelated to the Feast of Trumpets.

Instead, Bob says the trumpets of Revelation will be reformatory messages. (Since writing the above statement Bob seems to have revised his position. Under the dual application thread in the Bible Study Forum he seems to take the position that no portion of the trumpets will be repeated in the future.)

But the above quotes are clear and simple. The trumpets will be repeated - whether they are reformatory messages or whether they are pre-plague judgments, calling the attention of the world to the hour of His Judgment. I say that it is safer to assume that Revelation 8 and 9 should be taken literally and then be pleasantly surprise when they turn out to be reformatory messages only, rather than vice versa.

But, let’s say for the moment that Bob is right and the trumpets of Revelation are future reformatory messages only. It seems to me that it would be reasonable to think that they relate to the Feast of Trumpets which is related to the judgment. In the Jewish fall feasts, the Trumpets point to the judgment of the Day of Atonement.

Most Adventists would probably agree that the Day of Atonement for much of the world has not begun. How can God hold the world accountable if they haven’t heard the message or if they heard it, the message was drowned out by the sins of the messengers? Remember that Mrs. White tells us that God intentionally keeps many from hearing our message and receiving it because of the conditions that exist in many of our churches.

Like Moore, editor of the Signs of the Times, I believe that the trumpets announce the nearness of the close of probation, and most likely, they announce the judgment of the living.