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Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: Rosangela] #92802
11/15/07 03:49 PM
11/15/07 03:49 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Does Boyd analyze the examples in Scripture which provide evidence that God knows exactly how the future will play out?


Yes. The first chapter of the book presents Scriptures which speak of God's view of the future as settled. That's one way of putting it. Basically texts that those advocating the traditional view would present.

Boyd's position is that the future is partially settled and partially open, and that there are texts which suggest God see the future in both of these ways. He says the traditional view throws out the open texts as being anthropomorphic, but there is nothing in the text itself to suggest this. Rather than throwing out the texts (by throw out, I mean throw out in the sense of being evidence that the future is partially open) he suggests that the future is partially settled and partially open, so both sets of Scripture apply.

It's not an either or, but both.

This isn't really doing justice to what he wrote, but that's a quick general idea.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: Tom] #92805
11/15/07 04:32 PM
11/15/07 04:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
The prophecy I mentioned could not fit in the part of the future which is settled, for its fulfillment depends entirely on human free will. How is it then classified?

Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: Rosangela] #92812
11/15/07 06:32 PM
11/15/07 06:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
My question is the same as Rosangela's. If free will limits God's ability to know how certain aspects of the future will play out ahead of time, how can He predict precisely how an unborn person will behave hundreds of years before they are born?

Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: Rosangela] #92816
11/15/07 08:41 PM
11/15/07 08:41 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
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Boyd does analyze the example of 1 Kings 13 in the first chapter. He says as follows;
 Originally Posted By: Dr Boyd, God of the possible

Foreknowledge of Individuals
Second, a number of times the Lord demonstrates foreknowledge of particular individuals and various events in their lives. Twice in Scripture the Lord names individuals before they are born and provides some detail about their lives. Josiah was to tear down the pagan altars and destroy the pagan priesthood that plagued Israel (1 Kings 13:2-3; see 2 Kings 22:1; 23: 15-16), while Cyrus was to help rebuild Jerusalem (Isa. 44:28).
In a similar fashion, Jesus tells Peter ahead of time that he would deny him three times before the next morning (Matt. 26:34). Jesus also foretells Judas's betrayal of him (John 6:64, 70-71; 1318-19;17:12) and the fact that Peter would die a martyr's death (John 21:18-19). Just as impressively, David suggests that the exact length of his life was known by God before he was born. "In your book were written all the days that were formed for me," he writes, "when none of them as yet existed" (Ps. 139:16). Similarly, the Lord appointed Jeremiah to be "a prophet to the nations" when he was still in the womb (Jer. 1:5) and set Paul apart before he was born (Gal. 1:15-16). Defenders of the classical view of foreknowledge consider this evidence that God foreknows everything that every individual will do before he or she is born.
Finally, under this category, we should mention that a number of times the Lord prophesies that certain things were going to happen to various nations or cities. Often these prophecies involved the activity of particular individuals. For example, God foretells the succession of four kingdoms through Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Dan. 2:31-45). Most impressively, the Lord prophesies a number of details about the fate of Tyre (Ezek. 26:7-21). The fulfillment of this prophecy involved to a great extent the activity of one ruler, Alexander the Great, centuries after it was given. To defenders of the classical view of foreknowledge, this implies that God foreknew exactly what Alexander would choose to do centures before he did it. And if this much can be foreknown as settled by God, they conclude, we have no reason to deny that every detail about the future is settled in God's mind.

 Originally Posted By: Dr Boyd, God of the possible

Openness and Process Thought
Passages such as these beautifully demonstrate that the future is settled to whatever extent the sovereign Creator decides to settle it. God is not at the mercy of chance or free will. This understaning of divine sovereignty contrasts sharply with a popular liberal theological movement called "process theology." Some evangelical authors have wrongly accused open theists of being close to process though, but in truth the two views have little in common.
Process thought holds that God can't predetermine or foreknow with certainty anything about the distant future. Open theists rather maintain that God can and does predetermide and foreknow whatever he wants to about the future. Indeed, God is so confident in his sovereignty, we hold, he does not need to micromanage everything. He could if he wanted to, but this would demean his sovereignty. So he chooses to leave some of the future open to possibilities, allowing them to be resolved by the decisions of free angents. It takes a greater God to steer a world populated with free agents that it does to steer a world of preprogrammed automations.

 Originally Posted By: Dr Boyd, God of the possible

Individual Prophecies
Many prophecies pertaining to individuals can also be understood as examples of the Lord establishing particular parameters ahead of time. The two most impressive examples of this are Josiah and Cyrus. As a supernatural sign to his people, God named Josiah ("the Lord strengthens") and Cyrus and declared their accomplishments before they were born. This decree obviously set strict parameters around the freedom of the parents in naming these individuals (see also Luke 1:11-23). It also restricted the scope of freedom these individuals could exercise as it pertained to particular foreordained activites. In other respects, however, these two individuals and their parents remained self-determining agents.
To conclude from these two examples that the names and activites of all people are settled from eternity is unwarranted. They certainly show that Yahweh is the sovereign Lord of histroy and can predetermine (and thus foreknow) whatever he pleases, but they do not justify the conclusion that he has settled the enire future ahead of time.

The full argument is a book long, and I think I am already starting to near the borders of acceptable quoting. Please obtain the book for further questions as to what Boyd has written.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: vastergotland] #92825
11/16/07 01:15 PM
11/16/07 01:15 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
This decree obviously set strict parameters around the freedom of the parents in naming these individuals (see also Luke 1:11-23). It also restricted the scope of freedom these individuals could exercise as it pertained to particular foreordained activites.

I could never accept this as a valid view. I much prefer the view I defend. The author is saying that God restricts the free will of people, so that these people don't have a choice as to fulfilling His purposes. How can this be acceptable? How can then be said that Judas' free will wasn't also restricted so that he could fulfill the prophecy?

 Quote:
Open theists rather maintain that God can and does predetermide and foreknow whatever he wants to about the future.

Does the word "foreknow" here mean God can know how the future will exactly play out if He wants to? That is, that He is able to see the future as a rerun whenever He wants to? Or is "foreknow" here just related to what He predetermines?

Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: Rosangela] #92837
11/16/07 04:53 PM
11/16/07 04:53 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
 Quote:
This decree obviously set strict parameters around the freedom of the parents in naming these individuals (see also Luke 1:11-23). It also restricted the scope of freedom these individuals could exercise as it pertained to particular foreordained activites.

I could never accept this as a valid view. I much prefer the view I defend. The author is saying that God restricts the free will of people, so that these people don't have a choice as to fulfilling His purposes. How can this be acceptable? How can then be said that Judas' free will wasn't also restricted so that he could fulfill the prophecy?
Well, the one view God restricts one aspect of the free will in specific cases, and in the other free will is a logical oxymoron. In Judas case the prophecy was that someone would betray Jesus. If Judas would not have done it, someone else would. We are disagreed about this, and I guess that will have to be ok. Moving on.
 Quote:

 Quote:
Open theists rather maintain that God can and does predetermide and foreknow whatever he wants to about the future.

Does the word "foreknow" here mean God can know how the future will exactly play out if He wants to? That is, that He is able to see the future as a rerun whenever He wants to? Or is "foreknow" here just related to what He predetermines?
The whole paragraph is clear I think. But to specify, God "foreknows" that which he makes come true. God "foreknows" that which he intends to do, and since he is God, he can come trough with it.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: vastergotland] #92841
11/16/07 05:48 PM
11/16/07 05:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I prefer Tom's opposing argument. This other guy doesn't present a viable argument, that is, it doesn't hold water with me. God is not arbitrary like this guy proposes.

Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: Mountain Man] #92845
11/16/07 06:37 PM
11/16/07 06:37 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I prefer Tom's opposing argument. This other guy doesn't present a viable argument, that is, it doesn't hold water with me. God is not arbitrary like this guy proposes.

\:\) Have you read the book? No good saying an argument i viable or not unless one has acctually heard it. Then again, it is much easier to have strong oppinions about that which one does not understand.

And no, reading 4-5 paragraphs out of a book does not qualify as understanding the book.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: vastergotland] #92856
11/17/07 02:34 AM
11/17/07 02:34 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Thanks so much, Thomas, for presenting the excerpts from the book. Are these on line somewhere? Or did you type them in yourself? If so, that's a lot of work, and much appreciated.

Rosangela, God did not restrict free will in any way. God does not do that. However, God can influence free will, and God can foresee the results of that influence.

There's a real logical problem with the idea that the future is exhaustively settled. It's really surprising to me that this isn't easily seen.

If the future is exhaustively settled, then we cannot act other than what that future holds.

Boyd presents this point very well, in the answer to one of the questions in chapter 4 I think. The last paragraph. I don't have the book with me right now, so I can't quote it, but it's at the end of the question where Boyd presents the philosophical argument involving "God's book of facts" I think he calls it. Thomas, if you can type that it, it would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise I'll do it when I get a chance.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Review: God of the possible [Re: Tom] #92862
11/17/07 08:37 AM
11/17/07 08:37 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Mike and Rosangela have already rejected that argument. But your off course free to quote it if you wish. \:\)


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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