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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #100727
07/09/08 07:01 PM
07/09/08 07:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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TE: The light of the glory of God is Jesus Christ.

MM: Does this mean Jesus is the one who slays the wicked?

DA 107
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #100751
07/10/08 12:19 AM
07/10/08 12:19 AM
Tom  Offline
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Yes, I explained this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #100771
07/10/08 03:04 PM
07/10/08 03:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Since, according to your interpretation of the SOP, Jesus demonstrated the wrath and vengeance of "an offended God" while here in the flesh, please cite an example of Him slaying the wicked. Also, please explain how the same action gives life to the resurrected saints. Thank you.

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #100776
07/10/08 04:03 PM
07/10/08 04:03 PM
Tom  Offline
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The same passage in DA explains the principles involved:

 Quote:
"I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance," said John; "but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Matt. 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities "by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." The word of the Lord to Israel was, "I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isa. 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.

Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #100815
07/11/08 03:18 PM
07/11/08 03:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Yes, that's my point. The "brightness" of the "light" of His "presence" is what consumes "sin". At the end of time, sin and sinners are destroyed together. Resurrected sinners are, as it were, collateral damage. "Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them." Sin is destroyed by the "light" and "revelation of God's presence." Only the "pure in heart could abide in His presence."

Is this what you believe? Or, do you think the "brightness" of the "light" of His "presence" is the truth, that it is the truth which causes resurrected sinners to suffer and die?

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #100828
07/11/08 05:21 PM
07/11/08 05:21 PM
Tom  Offline
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 Quote:
Yes, that's my point. The "brightness" of the "light" of His "presence" is what consumes "sin".


The passage points out that the same thing that gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked.

 Quote:
At the end of time, sin and sinners are destroyed together. Resurrected sinners are, as it were, collateral damage. "Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them." Sin is destroyed by the "light" and "revelation of God's presence." Only the "pure in heart could abide in His presence."


Not "revelation of God's presence" but "revelation of God's character." It's a spiritual matter, not a physical one.

 Quote:
Is this what you believe? Or, do you think the "brightness" of the "light" of His "presence" is the truth, that it is the truth which causes resurrected sinners to suffer and die?


Yes. What makes us who we are is our minds. The destruction which sin causes is due to the effect on the mind. Sin causes our minds to become warped so that we cannot bear to be in Christ's presence. Note the passage:

 Quote:
In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence.


Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. Why? Because this is a matter of the heart (which, in Scripture, represents the deepest, innermost issues of a man, which involves the mind).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #100913
07/15/08 03:05 PM
07/15/08 03:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: tom
Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. Why? Because this is a matter of the heart (which, in Scripture, represents the deepest, innermost issues of a man, which involves the mind).

Why, then, weren't those who opposed Jesus, slain? Why didn't they desire to die? If Jesus demonstrated everything there is to know about God, why didn't impenitent sinners suffer and die in the presence of His glory (His character)? Why is it that they experienced discomfort when the light of divinity flashed through humanity? What is this light?

DA 591
Divinity flashed through humanity, investing Christ with a dignity and glory He had never manifested before. Those standing nearest Him drew as far away as the crowd would permit. Except for a few of His disciples, the Saviour stood alone. {DA 590.4}

5BC 1131
God sent His Son into the world, His divinity clothed with humanity, that man might bear the image of the invisible God. He made known in His words, His character, His power and majesty, the nature and attributes of God. Divinity flashed through humanity in softening, subduing light. He was the embodiment of the law of God, which is the transcript of His character (MS 77, 1899). {5BC 1131.6}

Also, in the following account, what is the light that causes the mob to fall backward? Is this the light that will cause the resurrected wicked to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness?

DA 694
No traces of His recent agony were visible as Jesus stepped forth to meet His betrayer. Standing in advance of His disciples He said, "Whom seek ye?" They answered, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus replied, "I am He." As these words were spoken, the angel who had lately ministered to Jesus moved between Him and the mob. A divine light illuminated the Saviour's face, and a dovelike form overshadowed Him. In the presence of this divine glory, the murderous throng could not stand for a moment. They staggered back. Priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, fell as dead men to the ground. {DA 694.5}

The angel withdrew, and the light faded away. Jesus had opportunity to escape, but He remained, calm and self-possessed. As one glorified He stood in the midst of that hardened band, now prostrate and helpless at His feet. The disciples looked on, silent with wonder and awe. {DA 694.6}

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #100927
07/15/08 06:27 PM
07/15/08 06:27 PM
Tom  Offline
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From EGW quotes we know that:

1.All that man needs to know, or can know, of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.
2.The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

I've explained why the light of the glory of God refers to Jesus Christ. I gave 3 reasons, which were, as I recall:

1.Jesus Christ gives life to the wicked.
2."Light" = "Revelation" and "Glory" = "Character". Therefore "light of the glory of God" = "revelation of the glory of God."
3.The EGW was thinking along these lines is made clear by the very next sentence, which speaks of Christ as the "revealer of the glory of God" (small "r").

The only response I recall that you gave to this is that you don't think that this refers to Christ because it says "light" and not "Light". However, I doubt you would disagree that "revealer" refers to Christ, even though a small "r" was used, and this was just one sentence after the "light" sentence. So maybe she, or the editors (remember that the "Desire of Ages" was edited) didn't feel like having a large "r" or "l".

At any rate, this all ties together.

She also states that only the pure in heart could abide in his presence.

She says the same thing that gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked. Obviously this cannot be literal light from the physical presence of God because literal light from the physical presence of God doesn't give life to the righteous.

I'm repeating myself here. I don't know what else to say.

Is there something you disagree with? If so, what? It seems to me that I've just been presenting ideas straight from EGW here.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #100977
07/18/08 11:05 PM
07/18/08 11:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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I've imported this from another thread:

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
Also, I agree with you that the title "the Light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus; however, I do not agree with you that the phrase "the light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus.

Capitalizing a letter isn't what determines if to what or whom a passage refers. The context does.

Every time she capitalizes a word, as in the word "Light" quoted above, it refers to a title, especially when it refers to Divine titles. In this case, the title "Light" is referring to Jesus, and it may or may not be a reference to the brightness of His radiant glory. But when the word "light" (lower case) is used, instead of the word "Light" (upper case), it almost always refers to the dazzling brightness of His radiant glory, which outshines the sun.

Can you think of a different word she uses to describe the fact Jesus glows, shines more brightly than our sun?

 Originally Posted By: tom
 Quote:
I believe it refers to the brightness of His glory. "His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun." GC 641.

The context doesn't fit. I presented you with 3 arguments demonstrated that "the light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus Christ. The easiest way to see this is by considering the very next sentence! "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God."

Here's the context (what you call the very next sentence is actually in the very next paragraph):

DA 107, 108
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Let’s take a closer look at this paragraph. “To sin, wherever found, ‘our God is a consuming fire.’ Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin.” The Holy Spirit is compared to a consuming fire. He consumes sin in penitent sinners. This form of fire obviously does not consume sinful flesh.

The next part reads: “But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.” This form of fire destroys sin, but it also destroys sinful flesh in the process. Sinners are, in this case, collateral damage.

Moving on to the next section: “Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence.” In this case, the revelation of God’s physical presence, seeing Him face to face, did not destroy sinful flesh.

And then: “But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed.” In such cases, the revelation of God’s physical presence destroyed sinful flesh. I suppose she has Nadab and Abihu in mind.

Finally: “At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed ‘with the Spirit of His mouth,’ and destroyed ‘with the brightness of His coming.’ 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.” Here she compares “the light of the glory of God” to “the brightness of His coming”, which destroys the wicked when Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory. This same bright, divine light source imparts life to the righteous. See my comments below.

 Originally Posted By: tom
"Light of the glory of God" = "Revelation (or revealer) of the character of God"

Here's an example that your idea of capitalization is off. She refers to Christ as "the revealer of the character of God." The "r" in "revealer" is not capitalized, yet you can see that this refers to Christ, right?

You’re right, Tom, she didn’t always capitalize titles. But note the following capitalized titles:

COL 37
Ever since the fall of man, Christ had been the Revealer of truth to the world. {COL 37.1}

PK 499
Their lives were spared because of Daniel's connection with the Revealer of secrets. {PK 499.3}

4BC 1166
He is revealed as the monarch of the universe, about to set up His everlasting kingdom--the Ancient of days, the living God, the Source of all wisdom, the Ruler of the present, the Revealer of the future. {4BC 1166.4}

 Originally Posted By: tom
 Quote:
There are many forms of light, some are harmless and helpful, while others are dangerous and destructive. Surely you can see from the passages quoted above that the light of God's glory is literal light. Do you?

In the passage under consideration, in DA 108, it's clearly *not* literal light, as the light referred to gives life to the righteous. Literal light does not give life to the righteous. I've made this point many times now. I don't believe you've acknowledged this point, which is easy to see. The same thing that gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked. You have never had an explanation for this.

Actually, Tom, literal light is a source of life and death in many different situations. Too much or too little light is a contributing factor in death. Just the right amount and kind of light is a contributing factor in life. Check out these links:

http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/s3.htm
http://sciencelinks.jp/content/view/33/33/

The light of the glory of God is a form of light that can give life or take life. Of course, it is not the only factor involved. Whether or not a person lives or dies in the presence of divine light depends on the type of flesh they have: sinful flesh cannot withstand the unveiled light of God’s radiant glory., whereas, sinless flesh thrives in it.

 Originally Posted By: tom
Regarding the passages you gave, I'm not going to go through each one, but I'll consider the first one:

 Quote:
When the glory was withdrawn, and Saul arose from the ground, he found himself totally deprived of sight. The brightness of Christ's glory had been too intense for his mortal eyes; and when it was removed, the blackness of night settled upon his vision. {AA 117.3}

This could not have been a literal physical bright light because Saul was the only one who saw it.

Here is the context of the light:

 Quote:
AA 114, 115
While Saul, with his companions, gazed with admiration on the fruitful plain and the fair city below, "suddenly," as he afterward declared, there shone "round about me and them which journeyed with me" "a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun" (Acts 26:13), too glorious for mortal eyes to bear. Blinded and bewildered, Saul fell prostrate to the ground. {AA 114.1}

While the light continued to shine round about them, Saul heard, "a voice speaking . . . in the Hebrew tongue" (Acts 26:14), "saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me? And he said, Who art Thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." {AA 114.2}

Filled with fear, and almost blinded by the intensity of the light, the companions of Saul heard a voice, but saw no man. But Saul understood the words that were spoken, and to him was clearly revealed the One who spoke --even the Son of God. In the glorious Being who stood before him he saw the Crucified One. Upon the soul of the stricken Jew the image of the Saviour's countenance was imprinted forever. The words spoken struck home to his heart with appalling force. Into the darkened chambers of his mind there poured a flood of light, revealing the ignorance and error of his former life and his present need of the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. {AA 115.1}

I’m not sure how she could have stated it more clearly, Tom. Paul’s companions saw the light, too. They didn’t understand the voice, but they clearly saw the light. The light was literal light, don’t you agree? It had a physical effect of Paul. It caused blindness, and perhaps lifetime damage (not all agree this was the cause of Paul's "thorn in the flesh").

 Originally Posted By: tom
Anyway, the fact that some passage somewhere speaks of literal light does not mean the one in DA 108 is. In fact, it is clear that it isn't, because the light referred to in DA 108 gives life to the righteous. Who gives life to the righteous? Jesus Christ.

Jesus created us in such a way that several things are necessary to live eternally: 1) the breath of life, 2) the tree of life, 3) the water of life, and 4) the light of life. It is this form of light that she is referring to in DA 108. It gives life to those who possess sinless flesh and it takes life from those who posses sinful flesh. It is a physical light that has a physical effect and physical things.

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #100979
07/19/08 12:24 AM
07/19/08 12:24 AM
Tom  Offline
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 Quote:
TE:Capitalizing a letter isn't what determines if to what or whom a passage refers. The context does.

MM:Every time she capitalizes a word, as in the word "Light" quoted above, it refers to a title, especially when it refers to Divine titles. In this case, the title "Light" is referring to Jesus, and it may or may not be a reference to the brightness of His radiant glory. But when the word "light" (lower case) is used, instead of the word "Light" (upper case), it almost always refers to the dazzling brightness of His radiant glory, which outshines the sun.

Can you think of a different word she uses to describe the fact Jesus glows, shines more brightly than our sun?


I'm not following you. My point is that the "light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus Christ, which can be seen in three ways.

1.She says the "light of the glory of God" gives life to the righteous. We know that Jesus Christ gives life to the righteous. So this, without going farther, immediately identifies the "light of the glory of God" as being Jesus Christ. Just this point by itself is enough to establish the point.

2."Light" = "Revelation" "Glory" = "Character". So the "light of the glory of God" is the revelation of God's character. This is certainly a possible interpretation.

3.That this interpretation is correct is shown by the very next sentence, which speaks of Jesus Christ, the "revealer of the character of God".

Your counter to this was that "light" was not upper case. I pointed out that "revealer" is not upper case either, but it clearly refers to Jesus Christ. Therefore ruling out that a word can refer to Jesus Christ because it is not capitalized is not a valid argument.

 Quote:
Here's the context (what you call the very next sentence is actually in the very next paragraph):


Surely you must know that the first sentence of a paragraph can follow the last sentence of a previous one, and in such a case the first sentence of the second paragraph follows the last sentence of the first. What I wrote is absolutely true, isn't it? (that the very next sentence she wrote says what I claimed)

 Quote:
You’re right, Tom, she didn’t always capitalize titles. But note the following capitalized titles:

COL 37
Ever since the fall of man, Christ had been the Revealer of truth to the world. {COL 37.1}


It should be clear to see that this just makes my point. In the sentence "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God." it is clear that "revealer" refers to Jesus Christ, even though the "r" is not capitalized. Therefore the word "light" in the previous sentence can have reference to Christ as well.

 Quote:
The light of the glory of God is a form of light that can give life or take life. Of course, it is not the only factor involved. Whether or not a person lives or dies in the presence of divine light depends on the type of flesh they have: sinful flesh cannot withstand the unveiled light of God’s radiant glory., whereas, sinless flesh thrives in it.


MM, do you seriously think that when EGW wrote that "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous" that she had in mind that the physical light of God's physical presence gives life to the righteous? You don't believe that it is Jesus Christ gives life to the righteous?

 Quote:
I’m not sure how she could have stated it more clearly, Tom. Paul’s companions saw the light, too. They didn’t understand the voice, but they clearly saw the light. The light was literal light, don’t you agree? It had a physical effect of Paul. It caused blindness, and perhaps lifetime damage (not all agree this was the cause of Paul's "thorn in the flesh").


They saw something and they heard something, but they didn't see what Paul saw and they didn't hear what Paul heard. I should have said "This could not simply have been a literal physical bright light because Saul was the only one who went blind because of it."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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