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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #96831
03/13/08 03:41 AM
03/13/08 03:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
When we were discussing whether Lucifer had sinned before his final decision, Rosangela, found this statement:

 Quote:
Before (Satan) was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous.(4SP 319)


You responded to this statement by saying that "sin" meant something different in this case than it ordinarily means.

Ellen White's statement is clear:

 Quote:
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. (8T 286)


The statement I provided from a non-SDA, using, interestingly enough, the same logic Ellen White uses (i.e., Satan misrepresented God's character, and in so doing, led man into sin; Christ revealed the truth about God to counteract the lies of the evil one) is equally clear.

 Quote:
Whereas certain false teachers of his day were depicting Christ as one aspect of the display of God's fullness, Paul insists, as we have already seen, that "the whole fullness of deity" dwells in Christ (Col 2:9). No aspect of God's fullness was withheld from the incarnation. All we can and need to know about God is found in Christ, for God fully dwells in and is revealed in Christ.(Is God to Blame? by Greg Boyd, emphasis mine)


If you choose to disagree with the statement that all we can know or need to know about God was revealed in Christ, that's your privilege.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #96848
03/13/08 04:05 PM
03/13/08 04:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I believe the statement. But, what does mankind "need to know"? And, what "can" we know about God? We are obviously capable of knowing everything we need to know about God. However, you seem convinced that this statement encompasses everything there is to know about God, rather than what we "can" and "need" to know about Him. On this we disagree.

Consider the following insights:

 Quote:
No truth is more clearly taught in the Bible than that God by His Holy Spirit especially directs His servants on earth in the great movements for the carrying forward of the work of salvation. Men are instruments in the hand of God, employed by Him to accomplish His purposes of grace and mercy. Each has his part to act; to each is granted a measure of light, adapted to the necessities of his time, and sufficient to enable him to perform the work which God has given him to do.

But no man, however honored of Heaven, has ever attained to a full understanding of the great plan of redemption, or even to a perfect appreciation of the divine purpose in the work for his own time. Men do not fully understand what God would accomplish by the work which He gives them to do; they do not comprehend, in all its bearings, the message which they utter in His name. {GC 343.2}

"Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?" "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." Job 11:7; Isaiah 55:8, 9; 46:9, 10. {GC 343.3}

Even the prophets who were favored with the special illumination of the Spirit did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them. The meaning was to be unfolded from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained. {GC 344.1}

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #96849
03/13/08 04:07 PM
03/13/08 04:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
By the way, I changed my observations regarding 4SP 319. Apparently, you don't remember.

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #96873
03/14/08 01:49 AM
03/14/08 01:49 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
I believe the statement. But, what does mankind "need to know"? And, what "can" we know about God? We are obviously capable of knowing everything we need to know about God. However, you seem convinced that this statement encompasses everything there is to know about God, rather than what we "can" and "need" to know about Him. On this we disagree.


No, I don't know where you would get this idea. I've never said that all that man can know about God is all that can be known about God. That would be silly. God is infinite.

The statement says that all that *man* can know about God was revealed in Christ, not all that can be known about God.

We will be learning about God for all eternity. But everything we learn was revealed in Christ.

Pretty cool when you think about it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #96874
03/14/08 01:53 AM
03/14/08 01:53 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
By the way, I changed my observations regarding 4SP 319. Apparently, you don't remember.


No, I wasn't aware you had changed. It seemed to me you were repeating the same thing. In what way did you change? That is, what was your view before it changed, and what is it now? Thanks for pointing this out to me.

Did you change your mind about "sin" meaning something different than we understand it to mean? If so, that's very good, because it's a lot easier to discuss topics if you don't have your own unique definitions for words.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #96888
03/14/08 03:37 PM
03/14/08 03:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: The statement says that all that *man* can know about God was revealed in Christ, not all that can be known about God.

MM: I agree. Jesus did not reveal "all that can be known about God." He only revealed what we are capable of understanding, which is what we need to know to get save and to stay saved.

TE: We will be learning about God for all eternity. But everything we learn was revealed in Christ.

MM: Again, we disagree. Because of our dullness, Jesus was unable to reveal "everything" we will ever learn about God throughout eternity. He said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #96889
03/14/08 03:39 PM
03/14/08 03:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
1. It is impossible for finite minds fully to comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One.

2. We can understand as much of His purposes as it is for our good to know; and beyond this we must still trust the hand that is omnipotent, the heart that is full of love.

3. The word of God, like the character of its divine Author, presents mysteries that can never be fully comprehended by finite beings.

4. The difficulty lies solely in the weakness and narrowness of the human mind.

 Quote:
It is impossible for finite minds fully to comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One. To the keenest intellect, the most highly educated mind, that holy Being must ever remain clothed in mystery. "Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" Job 11:7, 8. {SC 105.3}

The apostle Paul exclaims, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33. But though "clouds and darkness are round about Him," "righteousness and judgment are the foundation of His throne." Psalm 97:2, R.V. We can so far comprehend His dealings with us, and the motives by which He is actuated, that we may discern boundless love and mercy united to infinite power. We can understand as much of His purposes as it is for our good to know; and beyond this we must still trust the hand that is omnipotent, the heart that is full of love. {SC 106.1}

The word of God, like the character of its divine Author, presents mysteries that can never be fully comprehended by finite beings. The entrance of sin into the world, the incarnation of Christ, regeneration, the resurrection, and many other subjects presented in the Bible, are mysteries too deep for the human mind to explain, or even fully to comprehend. But we have no reason to doubt God's word because we cannot understand the mysteries of His providence. In the natural world we are constantly surrounded with mysteries that we cannot fathom. The very humblest forms of life present a problem that the wisest of philosophers is powerless to explain. Everywhere are wonders beyond our ken. Should we then be surprised to find that in the spiritual world also there are mysteries that we cannot fathom? The difficulty lies solely in the weakness and narrowness of the human mind. God has given us in the Scriptures sufficient evidence of their divine character, and we are not to doubt His word because we cannot understand all the mysteries of His providence. {SC 106.2}


Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #96906
03/14/08 05:55 PM
03/14/08 05:55 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
TE: The statement says that all that *man* can know about God was revealed in Christ, not all that can be known about God.

MM: I agree. Jesus did not reveal "all that can be known about God." He only revealed what we are capable of understanding, which is what we need to know to get save and to stay saved.


There are a couple of errors here. First of all, we are in agreement that the statement "Christ revealed all that man can know about God" does not mean that Christ revealed everything there is to know about God.

Let's call everything that can be know about God the set "U", which is infinite. We'll call the set "C" that which man can know about God. Clearly what man can know about God is finite, and we can also reasonably assume that Christ, in a finite amount of time, revealed a finite amount about God. Let's call what Christ revealed about God, the set "R".

C < R < U. Christ revealed R, so Christ revealed *more* than what man can know about God, but not as much as there is to know about God. So the first error is in saying that Christ "only" revealed what we are capable of understanding. The mistake is with the "only." That's not the case at all. That would imply that C = R, which in no way follows from the statement that C was revealed by Christ. That is, the set of what Christ revealed has a subset of C, so C is a subset of R. This follows from her statement, but not that C = R.

The second error is the idea that Christ only revealed what we need to be saved. There's a greater issue at stake than simply yours or my salvation, which is the Great Controversy. What Christ revealed settled the Great Controversy, so it was not simply enough for man to be saved, but also included the settling of issues that holy angels and unfallen men had.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #96910
03/14/08 06:15 PM
03/14/08 06:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
TE: We will be learning about God for all eternity. But everything we learn was revealed in Christ.

MM: Again, we disagree. Because of our dullness, Jesus was unable to reveal "everything" we will ever learn about God throughout eternity. He said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."


Ok, so you're interpreting the statement to mean "All that man can know about God now, in His present sinful state, was revealed by Christ's life and character." So you think there will be new things to learn about God that we have no idea what they even are now, and that Christ did not reveal. Is this what you're saying?

What I'm primarily concerned about is regarding that all that *we*, right now, can know about God was revealed in Christ's life and character, not what we in a resurrected state might be able to learn about God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #96923
03/14/08 07:40 PM
03/14/08 07:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
U = what God knows about His kingdom and character

C = what we "can" and "need" to know about God now

R = what Jesus revealed about God while here

TE: Christ revealed R, so Christ revealed *more* than what man can know about God, but not as much as there is to know about God.

MM: Where did this assumption come from? It makes more sense to me, in light of what Jesus said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now", to conclude C and R represent the same truths about God's character and kingdom.

---

TE: What Christ revealed settled the Great Controversy ....

MM: Not entirely; otherwise, heaven and earth would be celebrating over 2,000 years of life without sin or sinners.

---

TE: So you think there will be new things to learn about God that we have no idea what they even are now, and that Christ did not reveal. Is this what you're saying?

MM: I get the feeling if I simply answer, Yes, you're going to say, How can you be sure we won't learn something about God's character and kingdom we find objectionable?

With this in mind, I am reposting the following quotes:

1. It is impossible for finite minds fully to comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One.

2. We can understand as much of His purposes as it is for our good to know; and beyond this we must still trust the hand that is omnipotent, the heart that is full of love.

3. The word of God, like the character of its divine Author, presents mysteries that can never be fully comprehended by finite beings.

4. The difficulty lies solely in the weakness and narrowness of the human mind.

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