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Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: Mountain Man] #97320
03/25/08 06:02 PM
03/25/08 06:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. (Gen 3:8)


 Quote:
After Adam and Eve had yielded to the tempter, the covering of light, their garment of innocence, was taken from them. "The eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." In the past they had been glad to see their Creator when He came to walk and talk with them. Now in their sinfulness they were afraid to meet Him. Hearing the voice of God in the garden, they "hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. (Sermons and Talks One 319)


Sin was certainly a big deal. It caused Adam and Eve to be afraid of God, and run and hide from Him, which is crazy. It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, if one doesn't know what God is like, and sin causes us to be confused as to God's true character. Jesus came to reveal the truth about God.

 Quote:
In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. (DA 21)


 Quote:
We are sons and daughters of God. Satan is the destroyer and Christ is the restorer. He will make us partakers of His holiness. God does not make light of sin, but He seeks to rescue us from sin. There is not in Jesus Christ harsh, stern repulsiveness or resentment; and if we have the character of Christ we shall have His mold. There is no forcing us to holiness, but . . . He wishes us to imitate His character, to admire Him--true, pure, generous, and loving. (IHP 66)


I hadn't seen this one before. Very nice.

1.Satan is the destroyer, Christ the restorer.
2.God does not make light of sin, but He seeks to rescue us from sin. Amen! This is the point I've been making all along.
3.Christ (and God) is not harsh, or forcing, but true, pure, generous, and loving.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: Mountain Man] #97324
03/25/08 10:08 PM
03/25/08 10:08 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
TE: The result of distrusting God is seen by Adam and Eve's hiding from God when He went to be with them for their daily walk.

MM: Where does this idea come from? It makes it sound like God was unmindful of the Fall.

TE: Sin does not change God, but it changes us. Profoundly. It causes us to view God in a way He is not.

MM: They had every reason to be afraid. Fear is the result of faithlessness, of unfaithfulness, of being separated from Jesus. They hadn't heard of the plan of salvation, yet, so how could they not be afraid? Being alone, without hope, is a fearful thing. Even Jesus, on the cross, cried, Why have you forsaken me? For a time, He was lonely and afraid. Of course, the source of fear was different for A&E.
Fear is learned. Animals living on isolated islands usually are not afraid of the first humans they encounter. Before they learn to be afraid, it may be to late for them. Many species have turned into food this way. Adam and Eve had no reason to know what fear is, unless someone else had told them before.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: Mountain Man] #97325
03/25/08 10:22 PM
03/25/08 10:22 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tom, what you said about God showing up for "their daily walk" makes it sound like the fact A&E had sinned was no big deal. This idea is not biblical.
It does sound like the Lord gave the appearance of ignorance of the fateful events that had took place. He asks, where are you? He asks, who told you? God does not blame man for what had taken place, He sets up an inquiry to investigate. That this in no way negate the seriousness of sin is shown later, when all facts are on the table and judgement is pronounced, verses 14-19.

8They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
10He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
11And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
12The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me...

BTW; the two oldest self-justifying tricks in the book, blame the woman and blame God...
 Quote:

Being afraid of God was right and natural for A&E after they had sinned. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Their fear was not simply a result of sinning and misunderstanding God. It is how it is when sinners are without hope. They hadn't learned of the plan of salvation yet, so being afraid of God was right and natural.
"Being afraid of God was right and natural"... That does not sound right. Can you point to any text in the scripture where God or an angel tells any specific individuals to be afraid of Him?

Then again, maybe it is natural for us to be afraid of God. If truly honest with ourselves, can any of us say that we are not the slightest afraid of God? That we rather trust Him 110%? Any who answer 'Aye' to those questions have reached perfection.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: vastergotland] #97328
03/25/08 10:38 PM
03/25/08 10:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
It does sound like the Lord gave the appearance of ignorance of the fateful events that had took place. He asks, where are you? He asks, who told you? God does not blame man for what had taken place, He sets up an inquiry to investigate.


I agree. And He did so in a way that allayed their fears.

 Quote:
Then again, maybe it is natural for us to be afraid of God. If truly honest with ourselves, can any of us say that we are not the slightest afraid of God? That we rather trust Him 110%? Any who answer 'Aye' to those questions have reached perfection.


John says that perfect love casts out all fear, and that fear has to do with torment.

There's no reason to fear God. God is like Jesus Christ.

Regarding trusting God, there are other reasons that one can have for not trusting God other than being afraid of Him. In other words, one can not be afraid of God, and yet still not trust Him fully.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: Tom] #97330
03/25/08 10:44 PM
03/25/08 10:44 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
Then again, maybe it is natural for us to be afraid of God. If truly honest with ourselves, can any of us say that we are not the slightest afraid of God? That we rather trust Him 110%? Any who answer 'Aye' to those questions have reached perfection.


John says that perfect love casts out all fear, and that fear has to do with torment.

There's no reason to fear God. God is like Jesus Christ.

Regarding trusting God, there are other reasons that one can have for not trusting God other than being afraid of Him. In other words, one can not be afraid of God, and yet still not trust Him fully.
Perfect love casts out all fear, and loving perfectly is being perfect just as God is perfect, thus one who has had love cast out all fear has reached perfection.

If love has thrown out your being afraid of God, what would those other reasons be?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: vastergotland] #97332
03/25/08 11:02 PM
03/25/08 11:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Perfect love casts out all fear, and loving perfectly is being perfect just as God is perfect, thus one who has had love cast out all fear has reached perfection.


One need not be perfect nor love perfectly in order to not be afraid of God. Simply knowing that He is like Jesus Christ is sufficient.

Why should one be afraid of God? God loves us and has our best interests at heart. John wrote:

 Quote:
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.(1 John 4:18)


John didn't say that you have to be perfect in love not to fear, but that one who fears is not made perfect in love. One needn't be perfect not to fear God.

 Quote:
If love has thrown out your being afraid of God, what would those other reasons be?


First of all, what does it mean to say that perfect love casts out all fear? I understand this to mean that if we believe that God is like Jesus Christ, the perfect embodiment of love (another way of saying what John said, that God is love -- agape), then we won't fear Him.

Regarding reasons why one might not trust God fully, other than being afraid of Him, the first thing that pops into my mind is that one might simply choose not trust Him because one doesn't want to. I've got to believe that's reason #1.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: Tom] #97340
03/26/08 03:18 PM
03/26/08 03:18 PM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
God said that on the day they eat the fruit, they will die.
A&E ate the fruit, then here comes God in the afternoon. It would not be too far of a stretch to think that A&E were expecting death. So fear is quite natural at that point.

Perfect love casts out fear. And we see in the record that A&E did not have perfect love. If anything, they had perfect selfishness. That's one of the consequences of sin - selfishness takes the place of love. So, I don't see how A&E could have avoided being afraid when God came looking for them.

Also, remember the first step in their path to disobedience: Satan got them to doubt God's love. Surely, that error was not wiped away by any other step along the way to their rebellion.

At that point, why wouldn't they be afraid of God, whose love they doubted, and who had told them that they would die for eating the fruit?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: asygo] #97341
03/26/08 05:48 PM
03/26/08 05:48 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Good points, Arnold. Especially this:

 Quote:
Also, remember the first step in their path to disobedience: Satan got them to doubt God's love. Surely, that error was not wiped away by any other step along the way to their rebellion.


There's a vicious cycle that goes on here. Satan tempts us to doubt God, leading us into sin, which causes us to doubt God more, which leads us further into sin, etc.

Fortunately there's a circle that works the other. To know God is to love Him. Trusting Him leads to obedience, which leads to trusting Him more.

Or, to put it another way, as we contemplate God as He is in truth, we become transformed into the same image.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: Tom] #97355
03/27/08 02:17 AM
03/27/08 02:17 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
There's a vicious cycle that goes on here. Satan tempts us to doubt God, leading us into sin, which causes us to doubt God more, which leads us further into sin, etc.

Yes, it's a very vicious cycle. God had very good reasons for discouraging us from taking even one step down that path.

I'm planning on covering the three-step process into sin one of these days:

1) Doubt God's love.
2) Distrust God's word.
3) Disobey God's command.

That's the path Satan led A&E into, and that's what he uses today.

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
To know God is to love Him. Trusting Him leads to obedience, which leads to trusting Him more.

Yes. And the three-step process to start that cycle counters every step into sin:

1) Know God's love.
2) Trust God's word.
3) Obey God's command.

And it is very important to do it in that order.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "We Have No Sin" [Re: asygo] #97356
03/27/08 02:59 AM
03/27/08 02:59 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Knowing God's love means the same thing as knowing God, right? I don't disagree with what you're saying, but would state things a bit differently.

I'm thinking of the following:

 Quote:
In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2.


I love this quote!

Satan's tactic is to gain homage to himself by misrepresenting God's character, by representing God to be such a one as himself, severe, harsh, one who uses force to get his way, not having the best interests of those below him but thinking only of himself, etc. This is how Satan deceived man. Therefore the way back is to undo the deception, which is what Jesus Christ did. We are brought back to God as we believe the truth.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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