Mountain Man,

I am replying with what will probably be my last post, since I'm sure I'll be asked to leave after you and daryl read what I have to say. I do not in fact believe in the bible, christianity, or god. I was arguing for the sake of argument, and not really making a point regarding sin. I do however feel, that I have not sinned. I do not believe in your definition of sin, so thus it does not apply to me personally.

I'm sure that as many are reading this, they are gasping with horror! Not really, but alas, I don't believe in any of this stuff, not at all. That's not to say I don't know exactly what you are talking about, I do. I spent the first 18 years of my life within the Adventist religion. But for personal reasons, I have found christianity so completely devoid of any meanig for me personally, that I no longer am a part of the church, or any church for that matter.

And since I openly admit I don't go to your brand of church, much less don't believe in god, I know I'll be asked to leave. That seems like a funny thing to do to someone, but I can tell this place is only for the hard core believer. You would probably kick me out of your chruch as well, if I showed up. I don't think that's what your god would want you to do, but I strongly feel that is what would happen.

I'm not an evil person, although I've been called that by the principal of the Shenandoah Valley Academy bording school I attended. I didn't fit in, so I was asked to leave. It's something that's not new to me at this stage of my life, but it still stings sometimes. I don't believe I'm any different than the next guy, but I do feel like I look at life with eyes more wide open than most.

I know that if you are not SDA, you won't really be held in much regard to those within the church. I know, I lived that life for over half of my life. It's not a chruch doctrine, or some rule, but it is reality. If you think it's not true, try stepping back from your own life, and see who's in it, and where they attend. Once again, that's not true of every single SDA, but by far, the majority will gladly look down on those "not in the know".

I've never in my life found a group of people with a bigger set of blinders on than the church of my upbringing and family. My family, both immediate and extended, have a long history with this church, and I feel I speak/type these words with a good level of authority on the subject. People of adventism generally like to think of themselves as closer to god, because they read the bible differently than others.

I don't think that if several people looked at a famous painting, and all had different idea's of what the artist meant by the brush strokes, that any one person would be more right than the next. But that's the way with christianity. Every brand is SO sure they have it right, and they are going to heaven faster and will be closer to god than the rest. And that's knowing that everyone in every religion admit's there will be all religion's in heaven, and even non believers will be there.

I know there will be a bunch of questions asked after reading this post, why are you here?, what do you believe?, on and on. Some will have no problem with me being here, not believing. Those would say, it's our chance to bring back a lost soul. Others will find me revolting, akin to satan himself, with the need to remove me like a cancer. I personally think that neither is the case, but what I think does not matter. But what you think (either out loud, or in your head), and what you do will be watched by your god. And you wil be judged based on those actions (weather actions, thoughts, or words).

Now, I don't personally think there's some guy up there actually taking note of what you do or say, but I KNOW that for you, you really do believe that. You (SDA's, christians, religous folks in general) do create your own reality, and the more you believe in something, the more true it becomes for your own reality. It does not make it "reality" for everyone, and it does not make it "fact" for humanity. Your beliefs and fears hold no power over me, I don't ask for eternal life, because I wouldn't want that.

Life for me is a revolving thing, there is no forever. There is NOTHING in nature (the world and space around us) that last's forever. There is nothing that would indicate "forever" is even a plausability. Everything in the world we live in, and know of, has a cycle. Even something as massive and indestructable as a mountain, does not last forever. Science clearly show's the "skin" of our planet is constantly changing, tectonic plates (maybe you've never heard of them, I know I didn't until the latter part of my senior year of HS when I went to public school for the first time and learned of their existance in a freshman earth science class). They are real, verifiable, and testable. But that was not the focus of my primary education. I was not taught how to live in this world. The only prize was eternal life. All focus was placed on that end. No tools for living in this world we inhabit. No life lesson's on how to deal with people. No lessons on what the rest of the world is like, only our church, our school, and our piece of heaven. It's this view that most caused me trouble in seeing god in my life.

I was once a full on total believer. I'd have died for my church. Now, after seeing what SDA's are like, how they treat other people, and even those within it's own walls, I try to stay far from it. I think it's a brain washing cult. I think people are spoon fed information, with no encouragement to think on their own. I have to believe the way Tom Ewall say's, or the way you interpet the bible, or the way a pastor reads his version of the bible. There's no chance for me to find my own way, only the way you tell me how to live and believe.

So why am I here? I'd like to save a life. My life has been saved, from this cult. I should just cut and run, glad that at least I'm still alive. But I know other's are suffering, and for some reason I feel the need to save a life. It's like when someone is in a burning building, I want to go in and bring them out. They can't see because of all the smoke, their oxygen is running out, and they just need a helping hand. I want to be that hand. I've just barely made it out with my life, and yet still I try to help others.

I risk much by being here, it's damaging to my health, and this I know. But I would risk life and limb to help someone get out of this cult. And if someone else can see that they are being controlled, brainwashed, and that it's possible to live a happy, healty life without the church, that's what I want to do. It's not so different than what you belive, it's just at the opposite end of the spectrum. If that's what makes me evil, then so be it, I hope I'm the worst ever. I hope to release all people from the strangle hold of this church.

Most of this will be falling on deaf ears, as people are so wrapped up in their own dogma to see the big picture, but it's worth it to me to try to help. So remove me if you must, but know I'll keep coming back, I won't give up on you. I'm a real person, flesh and blood.

I wish all of you the best in life, I'd never hope for your downfall in any way. I do however, hope that you can find the strength in yourself, not in an etherial idea, to love yourself enough to help youself. Find the courage to see that we are in the here and now, and that old bedtime stories are just that, like santa, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy.

It's been fun to be here, I'll sign off now. Should any of you ever like help getting out, don't hesitate to let me know, I'd move mountains to release you from this grip.

Hmm, Interesting. Not sure what to think of this, more than that it explains where Ted is comming from.

Wow Ted! You sure played a joke on us.

With such a fair well, I feel that you deserve some type of send off.

How should we respond to an agnostic? I supose that Godspeed or God Bless would be inappropriate? How to say goodbye?

May the force be with you? so long, fair well, Hello Goodbye, sayonara, Let him go boys? adios, Aloha Oe.

Unfortunately, I have a bit of experience with the anti-Adventist mindset. His sentiments sound a lot like my Dad's, with the exception that my Dad has moved on to another religion.

A major point in common is that their view of Adventism is very different from what it should (and must) be, and they are intent on saving people from the "Adventism" they have grown to hate. And we must admit that there are groups that practice forms of "Adventism" that should be hated. But that doesn't mean that such groups are normative, or even common.

It is possible that people like Ted and my Dad know what Adventism really is, and they just don't like it. Not everyone who saw Jesus liked what they saw. So that's not necessarily an indictment of Adventism.

But perhaps people like Ted and my Dad have not seen, and maybe cannot even imagine what Adventism is supposed to be. And whose fault would that be? If they come in contact with us to let us know what they think of us, why is it that they still have no idea of the blessedness that is our privilege to have and share? If we are faithfully lifting up Christ, why are people not drawn to Him? Sadly, that is an indictment of our Adventism.

As Tom often points out, one of man's biggest problems is a misunderstanding of who and what God is. One of Adventism's big problems is that many of its members don't help in clearing up the misunderstanding.

Ted, I appreciate your desire to rescue people you feel are in need of help. It is a worthy goal. But what are you offering? From what you've written above it seems like all you are offering is the absence of adventism. But if I give it all up what is left? Will I be better off? Please explain to me how your offer will improve my life. Thank you.

PS - So we do not derail this thread you can send me a private message or email me directly. Thank you.

I grew up in California during the Hippie Movement - love, peace, joy, dope, and free sex. We often cited Jesus and the Bible to support our beliefs, especially what we believed about free sex. We called it love. I assumed Jesus advocated free sex because He spoke so much about love. It wasn't long, though, before I realized free love always ended in jealousy and fist fights. That's also when it began to dawn on me men and women were made to be monogamous.

So, it is more than semantics for me. Love must be clearly defined. And, from my perspective, love is not a god. There is a fundamental difference between who God is and what love is. Do you see what I mean?


And, what about people who forfeit salvation to serve sin? Isn't it right and natural for them to fear God, to be afraid of what He will do to them in judgment, in the lake of fire? The following passages say as much, don't they?

Hebrews
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Matthew
18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

It is also possible that Adventism as it is supposed to be is as rare as adventism deserving to be hated.

A problem I am having with what you write Arnold is that what you say in paragraphs 3,4,5 ought really to be said about christendom as a whole. Maybe you are talking about Adventism as part of Christendom and thereby including the whole in your characterisation of the part, but anyone familiar with adventism reads your words with the suspicion that you are really working out of the idea that adventism has replaced the whole of christianity as God's body on earth. And if that is really what you want to say, then your words are unfortunately part of the problem rather than part of the sollution.

I would also be interested in the responce if one is comming.

Thomas, do you agree with the SOP regarding the role of the SDA church as the Remnant Church of Prophecy? In other words, do you believe Jesus has commissioned the SDA church to call His people out of the Babylonian churches (protestantism and catholicism), and to invite them to join the SDA church?

Revelation
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

PS - Perhaps we should discuss this in a different thread?

Mike,

At best I am highly sceptical.