Ted Farmer, or should I say Eugene Shubert, I would also be interested in your reply to MM's post here in this thread.

Daryl, sorry, I'm not "Eugene Shubert". I assume that is some person who has perviously visited this site and caused you some trouble? I am not Eugen Shubert I assure you.

The world for some is very black and white. The world for others is very gray. And yet for all people, there is a bit of both. I know it's true of the folks here, because I've read most everything that's been written here, and most have also said as much. Mountain Man seems to think (as I'm pretty sure most here would agree) that if not adventist, then there is only the "absence" of adventism. It's full on pro-SDA or full on anti-SDA.

To me that line of thinking would imply that if you don't espouse the views of this church, that you are thus the complete and polar opposite. It would imply that if you don't worship god, you worship satan. If you don't go to church on Saturday, you go on Sunday (or not at all), or even the church of satan. Well, there's a whole bunch of other possibilites that don't have anything to do with either.

I don't worship satan. I don't slaughter animals on alters (as your past hero's did), and would never advocate such treatment. I would never expect someone or something else to die for anything I've done. I take FULL responsiblity for my actions, and need no other outside force to condone my actions. I don't see there world in adventist v.s. non-adventist. So that's not how I see it, there's SO MUCH MORE to life than that.

Without my belief and the chruch, what is left you ask? The rest of you life I say. The chance to think on your own. The opportunity to be free from someone else's idea of what is right for you, for you own unique and individual life. The chance to believe in yourself, and be proud of the things you've done, not shamed for all the things you've done wrong in someone else's eyes. The chance to no longer live a life driven by fear.

Yes, I think christians live in fear. They fear the loss of eternal life. An idea so unlike anything else, that people would completely overlook simple truths in life just to hope for the idea of living forever. There's is nothing in our univers that even points to the idea of eternal anything. But as a species that is so genetically driven to survive, there's also nothing more powerful for someone to hang in front of you, like a carrot for a donkey. You might not think that's what's happening, but it is, and not just for christians.

Many religions of the middle east lure people to slay themselves and others, for the same thing, eternal life (plus a bunch of virgins, an even better motivator). Yes, it's a fairly common theme in many religions, the idea of living without dying. Dying is the only thing humans have never had any power over. All other fronties we have overcome, new lands, water, underwater, space, computers, power. But life, and the continuation of it after this biological vessel fails us, is what everyone wants more of.

So religion offers you the chance to have more of it, if only you "buy" into their idea's and ideals. I know, you think that's not true as well, but it is. There's NO better business model than a church. You are a tax free business. You produce nothing. You sell idea's, nothing concrete. You have only to ask for "tithe" or "offerings", and yet operate by almost no other business principle. Church's are some of the wealthiest business on this planet. Even this one here. Church's, schools, college's, university's, hospitals, propaganda making machines. And all for good reason, to support it's own mission of survival, just like the rest of life on earth.

And they lure you into all this with the "chance" at eternal life. Who wouldn't want that? All you have to do is believe in "our way of thinking" and your in for sure. As we show you our way of thinking, you will want to obey these rules we present. And if you don't believe, then you will SURELY perish, no question about it, 1000000% chance of your death, but not us, we will live forever. It's funny, but ALL the religions are the same on this. Now, that's not to say that they all don't also have a way around that little caveat, but they won't tell you this. You must buy into their brand of religion (yeah, it's a brand, with a logo, special monogrammed stuff in their own stores, it's a business, don't say it's not) or you are doomed.

So they control you by keeping you scared to death, literally. If you don't choose us, then it's death. So fear is the driving motivator of christianity, as well as most other prominent religions. I don't want to live out of fear, and I would never want to worship anybody/anything that esposes that. I live with free will, and as soon as that's taken, I'll gladly end this life, no worries. There's nothing about eternal life that is enticing to me. I don't think that is free will. If I'm saved (as in the christian way of thinking), and go to heaven to live forever, I no longer have free will. I can't kill my self, I can't stop living, ever! You might say "you wouldn't want to stop living!", but you've never lived for a 100 quadtrillion years, so you don't know how boring it's going to get. And besides, that's just such a silly notion, there's nothing, nothing at all that show's it's eternal, it's just our driving ambition as the most dominent species to ever hit this planet to continue on.

And it's this control over people that I most object to. That is not all I object to, but it's a major player. And when it comes to adventism, I feel much more strongly about certain aspects that harm the psyche of it's members. And it's not so much the biblical view's, as it is the social conditions adventism creates. This idea of perfection. You must strive for it, though it's unachievable for all, or you are an automatic sinner. If you fail in any way to not be the best, the most devoute, more pius than your neighbor, you aren't going to make it to the big party in the sky.

So you have people beating themselves up over the most trivial of subjects. Don't eat pork, or you are sinning, and not taking god into you life if you eat bacon. You take that idea from times of old, for what used to be good reason. When you look at what we as a species knew about food safety even 200 years ago, you we as a species were clueless. The idea to not eat animals was good for a population, as no one got food borne illness and died of simple dehydration (another simple thing we didn't have the faintest idea of). And those simple idea's of how to live, what to do and not due, were rooted in good idea's for the populations. If city's, and countries, and religions, and groups of people wanted to prosper, they did well to do things that benefited them, even if they didnt' know why. They didn't understand that if you just cook you meat (any meat, any muscle tissue at all) to the right temps, you can guarantee there is nothing living in it that will make you sick, which unless you have an IV and someone who know's how to use it, you will die from the loss of fluid out of both ends of your body.

So there are some great lessons to be learned from the bible, as well as the koran, and most every other religion, and study of history that's available to us. But to let such ancient idea's rule and control your life (yes, control, through fear), is not letting yourself live. Live free or die. But few really ever want that, just the few who have been brainwashed enough to lose sight of how great life is.

For me it's the control, the spoon fed info, the rules that have been set up by someone else that I wish to save people from. There's no perfect world, there's no utopia where all are completely free, and are not oppressed in any way, but there's sure way more to offer than living out of fear. I want people to look inside themselves and see how great they are. To do what's right for them, not by someone else. There's nothing wrong with a group of people in for some common cause, but it should never be done by coercion or out of fear for loss of life and loved ones.

Now, as far as how I think you all here might benefit in your own lives, let's look at what exactly goes on here. This site is dedicated to the intense study of a rule book for life. There is intense debate about the most minute of pieces of information, from a book that is thousands of years old. We see in every single thread how different idea's (strong, valid, good debates) come out of the same passages. So many various view's on the same subject, each person sure their own view is the most correct view. Continually surgically cutting apart each and every nuance of passage's that have been handed down over centuries, translated over and over, into different languages, with subtle difference's implied with each re-writing. Possible one of the most dogmatic view's on christianity ever to come along. And that's what adventists think set them apart from the rest, their more devoute rule following (in my ever so humble opinion, if ever I had a humble opinion).

What is not going on here is any type of positive vibes. It's all, it say's this, so you have to believe this way, or you must be a total sinner. Or, you can clearly see how your view is wrong, and if you don't agree with me, then you'll never make it to the pearly gates. People don't say, "hey, guess how awsome god was to me today". People aren't encouraging others, they aren't helping people with the tough times in their personal lives. It's not, sorry to hear your mom got sick, any way I can help. I've never seen anybody offer any pracitcal advice on how to be more happy and healthy.

Sure there's a health message. It's as follows. Don't eat meat. Oh but if you do, make sure it's clean. Don't drink, smoke, dance, and don't do anything on Saturday. Don't use pepper, it makes you masterbate (that one is straight from ellen), don't eat pickles (once again, ellen picking out the great food ideas of the last century), and don't drink coffee. Plus you shouldn't play with poker cards, they are for betting, which is wrong, but rook is ok, since we just count points, not money! You don't find people telling you how to eat better, just what not to eat. You don't find people telling you how to be more healthy, just what not to do.

Next time you are at church, take a mental note of the physical fitness of the average member. Look at their height to weight ratio. What you will find is someone who does not eat meat, or just "clean" meat, who thinks they are better off then the rest because they follow all the rules of what not to do. What you won't find are people who are physically active. You won't see people who use their body to keep them healthy. They all want the easy way out. Just because you don't eat meat or pepper, does not make you any more healthy. And just because you are more ruthless in your abiltiy to control people, does not make you a better person. That's not a physically or mentally healthy way to live, once again, in my ever so humble opinion.

The adventist "culture" is what's making people fear. They keep trying to be better, better then their neighbor, better than other christians, better than the people in front of them at chruch. But they stop looking at their own lives, to see where they could help themselves, always's worried about how much better the next person is.

I want to help someone get out of this system. I made it out, out of 5 days a week of sda school, 24 hours of sabbath, only knowing and keeping up with those who espouse the same views. I want people to be happy to be alive, and enjoy the few precious years we have on this planet. I want to offer positive encouragement, and not shame you or scare you with fear. Maybe if that's what religion was about, more people would join, but then that's no way to control people, so that wouldn't work very well either, would it?

So most will continue to let others tell them how to live, because they don't think they have it in themselves, to make it on their own. And I guess that's ok, you can't save all the people on a sinking ship. I hope you can all someday realize they power you hold within yourself, to realize the potential you have to make a positive differnce, instead of all the negative views on life. Should you ever wish to have a helping hand out of the burning building, just let me know, or most anybody else who's ever made it out of the control cult.

If I had to guess, I would say rarer. It is much easier for us to be bad than to be good.


Perhaps it applies more generally, but I'll let someone else say it about Christendom as a whole, since I am in no position to make such a proclamation. What I said about Adventism was meant to apply only to Adventism.


There are Adventists who are part of God's body on earth, and God's body has parts who are not Adventist. God's body is made up of those who have God as head. Anyone whose head is not God might claim to be part of God's body, but the claim would be false.

However, I am unapologetic about my conviction that there is no better option than true Adventism - the way it's supposed to be. If there was a better option, whether within Christianity or without, I would be there, not here. Regardless of the fact that we are not what we are supposed to be, what we are supposed to be is awesome.

Has Adventism replaced the rest of Christianity? No. But I firmly believe that true Adventism represents what Christianity should be.

"Seventh-day" reminds us of God's Sabbath rest, rest in what God has accomplished for us.

And while Jesus cried, "It is finished" 2000 years ago, "Seventh-day" also teaches us of the need to walk in His footsteps today. His law of love continues to be a hedge about us.

"Adventist" reminds us of the promise of what God will do for His faithful people. No matter how ugly the past has been, or how hard the present is, the future is glorious.

I reject the idea that all Christendom is equally viable. While Adventism has not replaced the rest of Christianity, the rest of Christianity may be able to learn a thing or two from Adventism.


I'm not sure what you think I wanted to say, but I hope this post makes it a bit clearer. However, I am unclear about what you regard as the problem and the solution.

For me, the problem seems pretty clear. Jesus said, "As the Father sent Me, so send I you." Jesus was sent to reveal God's glory in the flesh. That's what we were sent to do.

The problem is that we who claim to know God's glory the best, are much more proficient at debating each other over what that glory means, than displaying that glory to those around us. By beholding, we are changed into the same image we behold. What are we giving our neighbors to behold?

Considering that you felt free to say that adventism is the best christianity has to offer, I do think you would be in a position to speak on the whole of christianity. Your knowledge of the whole must be impressive to be able to say you have found the best. Most adventists would agree that this is the theory. Then many would follow it with "but". And again your statements regarding adventism would of course apply to christianity as a whole. I affirm that both christianity as a whole and adventism would mutually benefit if both learned from the other. Just as other groups could learn from adventism, so adventism has things to learn from them. The problem is that we are much more like the diciples before pentecost than after. We look at other christians and then we run to Jesus complaining that: Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons[preaching, worshiping, defending the defenceless...] in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.; And then we expect a different answer than Jesus once gave: Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us.

The sollution to this would be the realisation that in the following sentence: 'By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another' "one another" is not limitied to our own group but very much includes all of those whom you previously said are not equally viable. If some of them are weaker, all would know we are Jesus diciples if we carried the other group so that they could reach the goal, without, and this is important, without any ulterior motives of canibalizing the weaker group. A stronger christian group helping a weaker christain group without any self interest would defuse some of what Ted and all others who share his experience have to point at while at the same time fulfilling one of Jesus commandments that many of us commandmentkeeping people risk missing only because it is not spelled out in the decalogue but said by Jesus. And the post just preceding yours show how we have failed to do just that. The experience told in that post, sometimes even with a hint of desperation I think, tell the tale of people more interested with ones own glory than with God's. Jesus said to His diciples, 'you ARE the salt of the earth, you ARE the light of the world, [you are] the city on a hill' which means Jerusalem (to any Jew it would anyway). If any of us who claim to know God's glory the best are not salt and light of our world, is there really any substance to our claim. And I am painfully aware that this question is to myself equally or more than it is to you or anyone else reading. Is there substance or is that claim as empty as the sound of clashing cymbals? Is there substance or have I/we taken the Lords name (in claiming to be His children) in vain?

Thanx for answering my question. How do you interpret and apply the passages I quoted above?

It's true that many are motivated by fear of punishment and hope of reward, but it needn't be that way. Before Enoch received the dream from God (related in the Book of Enoch, and quoted by Jude), Enoch wasn't aware there was an afterlife. He "walked with God" for no motivation other than that's what he wanted to do.

No carrot.

Are Ted Farmer and Dean Hunt one and the same person?

Tom, please consider the following insights (I've taken liberties to reformat these two paragraphs):

SC 21, 22
Oh, let us contemplate the amazing sacrifice that has been made for us! Let us try to appreciate the labor and energy that Heaven is expending to reclaim the lost, and bring them back to the Father's house.

Motives stronger, and agencies more powerful, could never be brought into operation;

1) the exceeding rewards for right-doing,

2) the enjoyment of heaven,

3) the society of the angels,

4) the communion and love of God and His Son,

5) the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages,

are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer? {SC 21.3}

And, on the other hand,

1) the judgments of God pronounced against sin,

2) the inevitable retribution,

3) the degradation of our character,

4) and the final destruction,

are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}

You may believe so, but I don't. Just because I've rejected every other one I've looked at because they do not offer what I need, doesn't mean that I know a whole lot about them.


But then, we agree that most Adventists are not what they are supposed to be. They are accustomed to "yeah, but" theology.


Very true.


I don't see how your problem/solution is conceptually different from mine. It's the same thing, said differently.

However, there is a caveat. We can love others, even while believing that their paradigm is not viable. Jesus told the Samaritan woman, "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22) But that did not mean that He loved her any less. On the contrary, He loved her, and that's why He was about to give her a viable paradigm.

So also with us. Yes, we are to help others. But that does not mean that we are to help them reach a goal that is not viable. Rather, we help them by showing them a better way. And if they happen to have a better way in some aspects, then we learn from them.

Is that cannibalizing each other? No. That's merely dying people helping other dying people get a better look at the serpent on the pole.


Yes. And the question before us is this: Will it cause us to point out someone else's error, or send us to the foot of the cross for our own shortcomings?


Indeed, we take His name in vain if we claim to be His children, but prove that He is not our Father.

But let us not forget that salt does its work when surrounded by that which is not salty; light does its work when surrounded by darkness. In short, we are to be in the world, but not of the world.

We should also keep in mind that to much salt is inedible. We need the right mixture.