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Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
#98533
04/23/08 01:36 AM
04/23/08 01:36 AM
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OP
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I am reposting material from a different thread to be discussed here.
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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98534
04/23/08 01:37 AM
04/23/08 01:37 AM
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OP
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Tom, the new mind and heart is what Jesus implants within people when they complete the process of rebirth. It is during the process of converting from worldliness to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded that the Holy Spirit reveals their sinful habits and practices in light of the cross.
After they have confronted, confessed, and crucified everything that stands in the way of them experiencing the miracle of rebirth - self dies and they rise to newness of life. The question is, therefore, which sinful habits and practices must be crucified before they can experience rebirth, before they can receive the implanted mind and heart of the new man?
You seem to think there are all kinds of sinful habits and practices that the Holy Spirit does not reveal before they experience the miracle of rebirth. You seem to be saying that the Holy Spirit waits until after they are born again to reveal the rest of their sinful habits and practices, that He is too kind and merciful to reveal certain sins because they are unwilling and able to confront them, to confess them, and to crucify them.
When I ask for examples of sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until after they are born again you list things like - saying "gee", being impatient, being proud, nursing old wounds, breaking the Sabbath, and believing things about God that are untrue. Given the types of things you list, I am led to ask, What did He reveal to them?
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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98535
04/23/08 01:38 AM
04/23/08 01:38 AM
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MM, what you are describing in regards to being born again doesn't fit with reality. I was born again when I was 15, and even thought it's been many years, I remember the experience well. A girl presented the Gospel to me, I recognized that Jesus Christ died for my sins, I was convinced these things were true, and realized I had a decision to make. Would I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior or not? Thankfully, I decided in favor. There was a complete change me, there's no doubt about that. My friends and family couldn't help but notice it. I was interested in reading Scripture, fellowshipping with other Christians, and discovering all I could about Christ. However, there was none of the long, drawn out process you seem to be describing. I was aware that I was a sinner, and I needed Christ. That was enough. *After* being born again, the Holy Spirit started revealing things to me in regards to my character. There was much that needed changing (and still, believe it or not, I'm still not perfect). I see nothing in my experience, or the experience of anybody I know, or have read about, that corresponds to what you are suggesting. When I read what others have written about justification by faith, like Waggoner, or Wesley, or Luther, I see that their descriptions match mine. Ellen White endorsed the teachings of these great men, and I see her writings in regards to justification by faith to be in harmony with theirs. I see the experience of the publican to be straightforward and easy to understand: 13The publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified. (Luke 9)
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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98536
04/23/08 01:38 AM
04/23/08 01:38 AM
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TE: However, there was none of the long, drawn out process you seem to be describing. She refers to conversion as "the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process." The following quotes describe her view nicely: SD 300 The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3} DA 172 Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3} DA 330 "Learn of Me," says Jesus; "for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest." We are to enter the school of Christ, to learn from Him meekness and lowliness. Redemption is that process by which the soul is trained for heaven. This training means a knowledge of Christ. It means emancipation from ideas, habits, and practices that have been gained in the school of the prince of darkness. The soul must be delivered from all that is opposed to loyalty to God. {DA 330.2} TE: I was aware that I was a sinner, and I needed Christ. That was enough. *After* being born again, the Holy Spirit started revealing things to me in regards to my character. There was much that needed changing (and still, believe it or not, I'm still not perfect). In light of the quotes posted above, are you sure you experienced the miracle of rebirth the instant you believed in Jesus? She says, "impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher." These are things that happen before rebirth occurs. Also, you seem to feel you are not perfect yet because the Holy Spirit still hasn't revealed things about your character that need changing. Are these things that will keep you out of heaven if they are not confessed and crucified? Or, can you take them with you to heaven and work on changing them there? The reason I ask is due to the following insight: 4T 429 The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. {4T 429.2} LDE 295 If you would be a saint in heaven you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above.--13MR 82 (1891). {LDE 295.1}
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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98537
04/23/08 01:39 AM
04/23/08 01:39 AM
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OP
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In light of the quotes posted above, are you sure you experienced the miracle of rebirth the instant you believed in Jesus? Yes, I'm sure. 3These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.(1 John 5) 4For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8) It's not possible to believe in Jesus and not be born again, because to believe in Jesus is to be born again. That's what the phrase "believe in Jesus" means. It means, to be converted, to be born again, to be justified by faith, to be pardoned, to have the law written in the heart, to be under the New Covenant; to be in Christ; these are all synonyms. She says, "impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher." These are things that happen before rebirth occurs. She said these "may" be received through the items she mentioned, but I wasn't doing any of these things. I have no doubt that the Spirit was drawing me unconsciously, but it way by other mechanisms. God is not limited in how He works. Also, you seem to feel you are not perfect yet because the Holy Spirit still hasn't revealed things about your character that need changing. No, I didn't say this. Are these things that will keep you out of heaven if they are not confessed and crucified? Or, can you take them with you to heaven and work on changing them there? The reason I ask is due to the following insight: To me the issue is very simple. If we were in God's presence, would we like Him? Would we want to be around Him? Would we long to be in His presence? Would we wish to live by the principles of His government? GC speaks of this: Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543) So I'll be in the one group or the other; either I'll long to flee from God, or long to be in His presence. My disposition one way or the other will decide my destiny. She also writes: It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him. (DA 480) What should motivate us in following Christ is not whether or not we will be saved, but the loveliness of His character.
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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98538
04/23/08 01:42 AM
04/23/08 01:42 AM
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OP
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On this thread I would like to study the following aspect of this ongoing discussion: Also, you seem to feel you are not perfect yet because the Holy Spirit still hasn't revealed things about your character that need changing. Are these things that will keep you out of heaven if they are not confessed and crucified? Or, can you take them with you to heaven and work on changing them there? The reason I ask is due to the following insight:
4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. {4T 429.2}
LDE 295
If you would be a saint in heaven you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above.--13MR 82 (1891). {LDE 295.1} Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98547
04/23/08 04:09 AM
04/23/08 04:09 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
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No. Change must happen before that time.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
[Re: asygo]
#98552
04/23/08 02:52 PM
04/23/08 02:52 PM
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OP
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Does this apply to everyone, or just the final generation of saints who are translated alive?
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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98553
04/23/08 02:56 PM
04/23/08 02:56 PM
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OP
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SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
"One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character."
Question - Which character defect is not included in this statement? Which character defect does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal until years after a person experiences the miracle of rebirth? Which character defect remains to be changed when Jesus returns and resurrects people?
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