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Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: Tom] #96558
03/09/08 12:10 AM
03/09/08 12:10 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TV: It is necessary to separate the two only to point out that salvation is by faith alone through grace alone. It is equally necessary not to separate the two chronologically, saying that one precedes the other.

MM: Amen. "God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul." {FW 100.1}

Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: Mountain Man] #96578
03/09/08 09:45 AM
03/09/08 09:45 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
I am comfortable with the idea made by Bonhoeffer because I have gained a fair understanding of the context and what he means by "obedience". The same I cannot say about Ellen. I don't know the context of the above and lacking that, it could, if taken alone, harbor the seed for some unbiblical justification-through-works theology.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: vastergotland] #96583
03/09/08 10:50 AM
03/09/08 10:50 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
So do you follow on the basis of whether you've read it or not or on whether you have a understanding of the truth and it is in harmony with God...?

Last edited by Richard; 03/09/08 11:14 AM.
Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: Rick H] #96589
03/09/08 03:40 PM
03/09/08 03:40 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I agree with what Thomas said.

I'm believe very strongly that Ellen White was a prophet, and that her writings were divinely inspired. However, there are many things that she wrote which can be misunderstood when taken out of context. What Thomas quoted from Bonhoeffer is clearly Scriptural, and I could find many EGW statements which say the same thing Bonhoeffer said. Thomas is quite right in not wanting to simply accept a one sentence statement without having an idea as to what the context is.

As an aside, EGW said that Waggoner could teach righteousness by faith better than she could. When pressed on this, she responded, "Yes, the Lord has given him special light on that question. I have been wanting to bring it out more clearly, but I could not have brought it out as clearly as he did. But when he brought it out at Minneapolis, I recognized it."

Now given that she said this, and the many things she wrote about Waggoner, one would think people who admire EGW's writings would be quoting Waggoner right and left, but I think most haven't even read what he wrote.

Not having read Bonhoeffer is a big hole in my reading repertory. I've been very impressed by the quotes Thomas has been sharing. I know something of Bonhoeffer's story, and have been impressed with him for a long time. Just haven't gotten around to reading him yet.

So this part is for you Thomas. I understand your reticence regarding Ellen White, especially as she is often misused as a hammer, but as you've found Bonhoeffer to be a blessing, and have been sharing his writings (and I'm glad you have) I've also found Ellen White to be a blessing, and would invite you to read straight through a book like "Thoughts From the Mount of Blessings" or "Christ's Object Lessons," if you haven't already done so, and I think you would find the experience to be quite a blessing. (Of course, I don't know your experience; you may be very well versed in EGW's writings, so I'm hoping you won't take offense at my suggestion; I'm just offering it as an opportunity to receive the same blessing I've received from your Bonhoeffer quotes).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: Tom] #96598
03/09/08 05:25 PM
03/09/08 05:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Thomas, I am glad you are at least willing to believe her statement is contextually correct. Here it is again with more of the context:

 Quote:
Repentance is associated with faith and is urged in the gospel as essential to salvation. Paul preached repentance. He said, "I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:20, 21). There is no salvation without repentance. No impenitent sinner can believe with his heart unto righteousness, Repentance is described by Paul as a godly sorrow for sin that "worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of" (2 Corinthians 7:10). This repentance has in it nothing of the nature of merit, but it prepares the heart for the acceptance of Christ as the only Saviour, the only hope of the lost sinner. {FW 99.2}

As the sinner looks to the law, his guilt is made plain to him and pressed home to his conscience, and he is condemned. His only comfort and hope is found in looking to the cross of Calvary. As he ventures upon the promises, taking God at His word, relief and peace come to his soul. He cries, "Lord, Thou hast promised to save all who come unto Thee in the name of Thy Son. I am a lost, helpless, hopeless soul. Lord, save, or I perish." His faith lays hold on Christ, and he is justified before God. {FW 99.3}

But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

James writes of Abraham and says, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:21-24). In order for man to be justified by faith, faith must reach a point where it will control the affections and impulses of the heart; and it is by obedience that faith itself is made perfect. {FW 100.2}

Without the grace of Christ, the sinner is in a hopeless condition; nothing can be done for him; but through divine grace, supernatural power is imparted to the man and works in mind and heart and character. It is through the impartation of the grace of Christ that sin is discerned in its hateful nature and finally driven from the soul temple. It is through grace that we are brought into fellowship with Christ, to be associated with Him in the work of salvation. Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin. Faith can present Christ's perfect obedience instead of the sinner's transgression and defection. When the sinner believes that Christ is his personal Saviour, then according to His unfailing promises, God pardons his sin and justifies him freely. The repentant soul realizes that his justification comes because Christ, as his Substitute and Surety, has died for him, is his atonement and righteousness. {FW 100.3}

Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: Mountain Man] #96617
03/09/08 08:38 PM
03/09/08 08:38 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Hmm, context proved to be an improvement...


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: vastergotland] #96629
03/10/08 12:19 AM
03/10/08 12:19 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Good. So, how did all this fit the topic? Does anybody remember?

Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: Mountain Man] #99721
05/28/08 09:49 PM
05/28/08 09:49 PM
A
andrewsvt  Offline
New Member (Starting to Post)
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4
Estes Park, Colorado, USA
from what i was told being raised in the church, if God chooses who is saved that would be calvinism right?
and that would mean that we do not have free will(to chose to be saved), which would give rise to the question that if we dont have free will, then why were we given the choice between good or evil in the beginning?

as i understand it, God, being omniscient, knows already who will be saved and who will be lost, still, everyone is given as many possible chances to accept Christ into their life, but ULTMATELY IT IS THE PERSONS CHOICE, and while God already knows that choice, He still gives them every opportunity to accept Him until it is too late, but so that in the end, no one will be able to say, "You didn't try to save me" they wil have to agree that God did give them every possible chance, and they still chose to reject Him.


I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 2:20
Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: andrewsvt] #99735
05/29/08 10:11 PM
05/29/08 10:11 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Sorry no one has responded to you sooner, andrews vt. I actually wrote a post, but I guess I didn't post it!

A short response is that because God is omniscient does not necessarily mean He knows exactly how the future will play out. Another possibility is that He knows all the possibilities that can happen in the future, but which ones will actually happen have not been determined yet.

We've had lengthy discussions about this in the past. Perhaps someone can resurrect a thread. If you're interested, I'd be happy to discuss this in more detail with you.


Nice to meet you,

Tom


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Choose or does Man... ? [Re: Tom] #99750
05/31/08 03:25 PM
05/31/08 03:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Andrewsvt, I totally agree with you that God knows who will choose to be saved and who will not choose to be saved. Of course, we do not have to choose to be lost.

DA 489
The True Witness says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock." Rev. 3:20. Every warning, reproof, and entreaty in the word of God or through His messengers is a knock at the door of the heart. It is the voice of Jesus asking for entrance. With every knock unheeded, the disposition to open becomes weaker. The impressions of the Holy Spirit if disregarded today, will not be as strong tomorrow. The heart becomes less impressible, and lapses into a perilous unconsciousness of the shortness of life, and of the great eternity beyond. Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}

1 SM 375
God justly condemns all who do not make Christ their personal Saviour; but He pardons every soul who comes to Him in faith, and enables him to work the works of God, and through faith to be one with Christ. Jesus says of these, "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one {this unity brings perfection of character}; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me" (John 17:23). The Lord has made every provision whereby man may have full and free salvation, and be complete in Him. God designs that His children shall have the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness, that all may have the light of truth. God has provided salvation for the world at infinite cost, even through the gift of His only-begotten Son. The apostle asks, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:32). Then if we are not saved, the fault will not be on the part of God, but on our part, that we have failed to cooperate with the divine agencies. Our will has not coincided with God's will. {1SM 375.1}

3T 455
The heart of God never yearned toward His earthly children with deeper love and more compassionate tenderness than now. There never was a time when God was ready and waiting to do more for His people than now. And He will instruct and save all who choose to be saved in His appointed way. Those who are spiritual can discern spiritual things and see tokens of the presence and work of God everywhere. Satan, by his skillful and wicked strategy, led our first parents from the Garden of Eden--from their innocence and purity into sin and unspeakable wretchedness. He has not ceased to destroy; all the forces which he can command are diligently employed by him in these last days to compass the ruin of souls. He seizes every artifice that he can use to deceive, perplex, and confuse the people of God. {3T 455.2}

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