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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH
[Re: Colin]
#99804
06/05/08 01:14 AM
06/05/08 01:14 AM
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Jesus was not born to die, but to live. Through His life, He revealed God to us. That was His mission. He stated: I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.(John 17:4) Ellen White comments on this as follows: Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.(ST 1/20/90) Jesus Christ was put to death by wicked men, inspired by evil angels. 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. (Acts 2:22-24) However, it was not possible for Christ to be overcome by the forces of evil. By way of the resurrection, He overcame. Let's discuss how it is that Christ saves us from sin. How is it that sin holds its power over us? It's by deception. Christ came to reveal the truth, which sets us free. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God,
attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 21, 22) This ties into the same theme mentioned earlier, that Jesus Christ came to reveal the Father. Here we see spelled out why. It was to manifest His character in contrast to the character of Satan. (M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.(DA 762) In these passages we see Ellen White echoing the teachings of John and Peter. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Pet. 3:18) Christ died "that he might bring us to God." How did His death do so? "The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH
[Re: Tom]
#99805
06/05/08 01:20 AM
06/05/08 01:20 AM
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A study of biblically legal requirement(s) is needed, eh? Indeed. I take it you have Calvin's idea in mind here. I'm aware of no evidence that Calvin's ideas regarding penal substitution existed before Calvin wrote them. Here's something from an article in Time magazine, April 2004: For a thousand years the mainline church saw His suffering and death not as salvation’s critical tragedy, but as just one more step in God’s triumphant campaign into the human world and the devil’s domain. The Church Fathers saw Christ’s incarnation and resurrection mainly as a necessary means of overcoming Satan’s hold on and claim to humanity and essential to reconciliation and a new start for humanity. Eastern Orthodox Christians still hold this view. According to writer Fredrica Mathewes-Green, it’s like the firefighter, who comes out of the burning building with the baby in his arms. People tend to ignore his wounds and scars. Christ’s victory was that He snatched everlasting Life out of sin and death.
Other scenarios from the early Church fathers had Christ paying the ransom to the devil for lost humanity. Then, St Augustine likened the devil to a mouse, the cross to a mousetrap, and Christ to the bait. Christ’s mission was to somehow rescue humanity from the legitimate claims of the devil. As others decided to leave the transaction a mystery, they were certain that there was a supernatural battle ongoing in a dimension beyond our direct perception. This conception survives in Martin Luther’s hymn, “A Mighty Fortress is our God”.
However, the theory developed by Anselm, the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1098 came to define Christianities majority understanding of the meaning of Christ’s death. He read in the New Testament that Christ’s death was a ransom, but he could not believe that the devil was owed anything, so he restructured the cosmic debt.
He posed that humanity owed God the Father a ransom of “satisfaction” for the insult of sin. The problem was that this debt was unpayable. We lacked the means, since everything we have already belongs to God, and we lacked the standing, like the lowly serf in his feudal world was helpless to erase an injury to a great lord.
Anselm initiated the concept of substitutionary atonement. Everlasting damnation was unavoidable, except for the miracle of grace. God “recast” Himself somehow into human form (the mystery of the incarnation), Who was both innocent of sin and also God’s social equal. As a human Christ could then suffer Crucifixion’s undeserved agony and dedicate it to the Father on behalf of humanity. Thus Anselm wrote that, “Christ paid for the sinners what He owed not for Himself. Could the Father justly refuse to Man what the Son had willed to give him?” This concept has been restated in many ways since and it has been extended to cover everyone’s transgressions for all of human history.
Later, John Calvin the founder of the Presbyterian Church in the 16th century replaced Anselm’s feudal king with a severe judge furious at a deservedly cursed creation.This is accurate. We owe our ideas of satisfaction and penal substitution not to Jesus Christ, or His disciples that penned the New Testament, but to Anselm and Calvin.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH
[Re: Tom]
#99811
06/05/08 02:17 PM
06/05/08 02:17 PM
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He read in the New Testament that Christ’s death was a ransom, but he could not believe that the devil was owed anything, so he restructured the cosmic debt. How in your view is Christ's death a ransom which had to be payed? Matthew 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many. 1 Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH
[Re: Rosangela]
#99812
06/05/08 03:35 PM
06/05/08 03:35 PM
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This is taken from a wiki article on "Christus Victor". Aulén argues that theologians have misunderstood the view of the early Church Fathers in seeing their view of the Atonement in terms of a Ransom Theory arguing that a proper understanding of their view should focus less on the payment of ransom to the devil, and more of the liberation of humanity from the bondage of sin, death, and the devil. As the term Christus Victor (Christ the Victor) indicates, the idea of “ransom” should not be seen in terms (as Anselm did) of a business transaction, but more in the terms of a rescue or liberation of humanity from the slavery of sin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor) If one looks at Jesus' quotes, He speaks of us death in terms of having a positive effect. For example: 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. (John 12:24-28) From His death, many would live. He gave His life for us, and if we would serve Him, we should give our life for others, as He did. In the Matthew quote, dealing with the ransom, He also speaks of service. Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Matt. 20:28) Nowhere does Jesus speak of His death as having the purpose of being a legal requirement for His Father to be able to forgive us. The fact that the word "ransom" has been understood in a certain way by those who have accepted Anselm and Calvin's ideas in no way is evidence that Jesus used the word with that idea in mind. Indeed, if we look at what Jesus said, there is no evidence that He had such an idea in mind that His death was necessary in order for God to be able to legally forgive.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH
[Re: Tom]
#99813
06/05/08 03:42 PM
06/05/08 03:42 PM
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Jesus was not born to die, but to live.
Jesus came to save man. Could man be saved without Christ's death? It is true that Jesus came to save man, but His mission was not limited to that. Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost.
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758) This is a very interesting passage. It speaks of Christ's death as a "victory." It defeated Satan. How so? Because it made clear that Satan was a liar, be revealing Satan's character in contrast to His own. Therefore, even more than Christ's death being necessary to save man, it was necessary to save the universe. Limiting the focus to man: (M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762) Jesus taught that we should love our enemies, and revealed a God of whose government force is not a principle. Jesus' life, death and resurrection were all necessary for the salvation of man, as in His work today, for He continues to be the revealer of God that man so desperately needs. While Christ revealed God throughout His life, nowhere does God's character of love shine more clearly than at the cross.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH
[Re: Tom]
#99814
06/05/08 06:08 PM
06/05/08 06:08 PM
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Therefore, even more than Christ's death being necessary to save man, it was necessary to save the universe.
Whether you realize it or not, you just gave the reason why Christ was born to die, or why Christ's death was necessary.
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Re: Lesson #10 - The Meaning of His DEATH
[Re: Daryl]
#99815
06/05/08 06:48 PM
06/05/08 06:48 PM
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Therefore, even more than Christ's death being necessary to save man, it was necessary to save the universe.
Whether you realize it or not, you just gave the reason why Christ was born to die, or why Christ's death was necessary. Why would I not realize that I was giving an answer to the question , "Why was is necessary for Jesus to die?" when the very purpose for which I was writing was to answer that question? You've equated why was it necessary for Jesus to die with His having been born to die, which, to my view, are not equivalent. Jesus was not "born to die." He was born to reveal God's character. The "whole purpose" (EGW) of Christ's mission was "the revelation of God." (EGW) Christ's death revealed God's character, as did everything He did. The problem with the phrase "born to die" is that it gives the impression that Christ's life wasn't really important. We can just skip that. All that was important was that He die to pay the debt we owed.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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